Williams Case Thread

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    ezliving

    Besieger
    Oct 9, 2008
    4,590
    Undisclosed Secure Location
    http://mddailyrecord.com/2010/10/07/gun-laws-challenged-in-md’s-highest-court/

    Listen to oral arguments posted in link below (video)

    Gun laws challenged in Md.’s highest court
    by: Steve Lash
    ANNAPOLIS — Maryland’s top court on Thursday grappled with whether the state’s laws restricting gun possession outside the home remain valid in light of a June Supreme Court ruling that the constitutional right “to keep and bear arms” extends to individuals.
    During arguments on the issue, Court of Appeals Judge Sally D. Adkins indicated that Maryland’s restrictions survive because the Supreme Court held in McDonald v. City of Chicago that the right applies only to gun possession inside one’s home.
    But Judge Glenn T. Harrell Jr. voiced doubt, saying the Supreme Court’s “obtuse” language in the 5-4 decision could indicate that the Second Amendment right extends beyond the home.
    The judges’ comments came as Maryland’s seven-member high court heard the appeal of Charles F. Williams Jr., who was convicted of gun possession outside his home.
    His attorney, James B. Hopewell, urged the Court of Appeals to strike down the gun possession statute as unconstitutional in light of the McDonald decision.
    The Supreme Court ruling gives people a “fundamental right” to gun ownership that the state can limit only in compelling instances, such as to keep a weapon from the mentally ill or away from schools, said Hopewell, a Riverdale solo practitioner.
    But Maryland Attorney General Douglas F. Gansler defended the state’s laws, saying the Supreme Court ruled that people have a Second Amendment right to gun possession solely in their homes and only for self-defense.
    States may impose “reasonable regulations” to prevent gun violence, Gansler said. Maryland has “a compelling governmental interest to not have people shot in the streets,” he added.
    In McDonald, the Supreme Court extended to states its 2008 ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms applies to federal laws and Washington, D.C., a federal enclave.
    In both rulings, the high court indicated that the right applies only to the possession of guns in one’s home for personal protection, Gansler argued and Adkins appeared to accept.
    “They only addressed in your home,” Adkins said of the Supreme Court rulings. “It doesn’t appear that that court” went beyond the home, she added.
    But Hopewell disagreed, citing two words in the McDonald decision as support for his position that the right is not so limited.
    Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., writing for the majority in McDonald, stated that “the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self defense within the home.”
    Alito’s use of the phrase “most notably” indicates that the right extends, albeit less notably, beyond self defense within the home, Hopewell said.
    Had the justices wanted to limit the right to the home they would have stated so more explicitly, he argued.
    “They left it open,” Hopewell added.
    That argument appeared to draw Harrell’s support.
    “They’re words that sound like the door is ajar to exceptions outside the home,” Harrell said of “most notably.”
    But Gansler responded that the court’s decisions in Heller and McDonald focused on what he called the “castle doctrine,” the fundamental right of people to protect themselves in their own home, or castle.
    “This [Williams] case is not about that,” Gansler said, noting the defendant possessed the gun outside his home. “We are not talking about fundamental rights.”
    Gansler, however, conceded under questioning from the bench that the Supreme Court had not specifically addressed the issue of gun possession outside the home.
    That issue “will come before the Supreme Court,” Gansler said. “[But] hopefully not this particular case.”
    Harrell, too, predicted that a line of cases involving gun possession outside the home will be appealed to the Supreme Court following the McDonald decision. He then had another thought.
    “If we rule in favor of Mr. Hopewell’s client, wouldn’t this case go to the head of the line?”
    The Court of Appeals did not indicate when it will render a decision in the case, Charles F. Williams Jr. v. State, No. 16, Sept. Term, 2010.
    Williams bought his handgun legally from a licensed dealer in August 2007.
    On Oct. 1, 2007, a Prince George’s County police officer saw Williams near woods and asked what he had hidden in the bushes.
    Williams responded, “My gun.”
    The officer arrested Williams for unlawful gun possession, specifically for violating a provision on carriage and transport. He was convicted and sentenced on Oct. 6, 2008, to three years in prison with all but one year suspended.
    His sentence has been put on hold pending the outcome of his appeals, Hopewell said.
    The Court of Special Appeals upheld the conviction last October, setting the stage for the constitutional challenge in Maryland’s high court.
    Williams, who attended the Court of Appeals argument, offered no prediction on how the judges will rule.
    “I hope that it’s a positive result,” he said.
    In a similar but unrelated case, Raymond Woollard of Baltimore County is challenging Maryland’s gun permit law as a violation of his Second Amendment rights.
    Woollard, an honorably discharged Navy veteran, was rejected for a permit to carry a gun outside his home. The state Handgun Permit Review Board, in rejecting his application, said he had not shown that he faced “threats occurring beyond his residence,” Woollard states in his complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Baltimore.
    Woollard is being assisted in the pending case by the Second Amendment Foundation Inc., a Bellevue, Wash.-based group that supports gun rights.
     
    Last edited:

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,954
    Marylandstan
    Listen to the oral arguments.
    http://www.courts.state.md.us/coappeals/webcastarchive.html

    10/7/2010
    No. 16
    Charles Francis Williams, Jr. v. State of Maryland
    Issue - Criminal Law - are MD. Code Ann. Criminal Law Section 4-203, Public Safety Art. Sections 5-301 et. Seq. And Comar 29.03.02.04 unconstitutional in light of Heller v. District of Columbia?

    Disappointing. Williams' attorney was in over his head.

    Not sure who this attorney is!!! Disappointing is an understandment..
    He stutters way to much, makes me belive he doesn't know what he is
    doing or doesn't know what the 2nd Ammendment really means
    as far as fundamental rights "in the home and outside the home".

    I sure wouldn't pay him to be my attorney...!! No Way!!
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    From the AP wire, concerning the Williams case, I wanted to get your opinions on this:

    Does this mean that since I own two homes, I can legally carry firearms between them? Is this open, or concealed carry?



    ANNAPOLIS, Md. -- Maryland Attorney General Doug Gansler told members of the state's top court Thursday that recent U.S. Supreme Court rulings prove state laws restricting people's right to carry guns in public are constitutional, despite the arguments of a man seeking to overturn the law.

    An attorney representing Charles F. Williams Jr., who was arrested in 2007 for carrying a handgun in public in Prince George's County, argued the same two recent rulings protect his client's right to bear arms.

    Two years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a D.C. ban on handguns and a trigger lock requirement for other guns, ruling that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess guns, at least for purposes of self-defense in the home in the federal city.

    After gun rights proponents filed a federal lawsuit to expand that ruling to apply to gun control laws in Chicago and a neighboring suburb, the Supreme Court ruled last June that Americans have the right to own a gun for self-defense anywhere they live.

    Williams's attorney James Hopewell said Williams was arrested near a bus stop while trying to transport a handgun from his girlfriend's home back to his residence and that he wouldn't have run afoul of Maryland law if he had owned both homes.

    "If my client had been among the 7 percent of Marylanders that are wealthy enough to own two residences - two bona fide residences, he could transport the handgun anywhere he wanted to," Hopewell said.

    Hopewell argued Maryland law infringed on Williams "fundamental constitutional right" to gun ownership, and that the latest Supreme Court ruling only allows states to regulate people's ability to carry weapons in certain circumstances, such as if the person is a felon or has a psychiatric problem, or is seeking to bring the gun to "sensitive places" likes schools or government buildings.

    Gansler said that the two Supreme Court opinions only guarantee people the right to keep handguns in their homes for self defense. He argued neither ruling affects a state's ability to protect public safety by regulating when people can carry guns in public.

    "Every court that has looked at this issue, without exception, has found that a state does have a right under police powers to regulate in some fashion the Second Amendment," Gansler told The Associated Press. "So we have no reason to expect anything different."

    Judges reacted differently to Gansler and Hopewell's arguments, with one judge saying she saw the Supreme Court rulings as only applying to the guns kept at home for self-defense and another saying it was too difficult to tell if the ruling was that cut and dry.

    It is not clear when the court will rule on the case.
     

    Ethan83

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    3,111
    Baltimoreish
    "If my client had been among the 7 percent of Marylanders that are wealthy enough to own two residences - two bona fide residences, he could transport the handgun anywhere he wanted to," Hopewell said.

    It helps to get designated collector status. That way he could have regular private showings of his collection at his girlfriend's house. It'd have to be unloaded and in an enclosed case or holster when in transit, but I see no limitations in the law as to what qualifies as a private showing of your collection.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    Wow, what a dumb argument from Hopewell. He should have done some homework. The rednecks on this forum could have come up with a better argument, just by cribbing from Gura and Hansel, et al.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    It helps to get designated collector status. That way he could have regular private showings of his collection at his girlfriend's house. It'd have to be unloaded and in an enclosed case or holster when in transit, but I see no limitations in the law as to what qualifies as a private showing of your collection.

    Why? Hasn't it been established, even within the "People's Republic", that I have the right to defend myself when in my home? Which home? Doesn't that apply to ALL of my homes? And how am I supposed to transport them from home to the other home? Mail them? Send them FedEx? OK, so it's not CCW, or open carry, but it's 24/7, because you never know when you might want to go from one home to the other. No?
     

    md_rick_o

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 30, 2008
    5,112
    Severn Md.
    Gansler said that the two Supreme Court opinions only guarantee people the right to keep handguns in their homes for self defense. He argued neither ruling affects a state's ability to protect public safety by regulating when people can carry guns in public.

    I'm sorry, i must have missed this part of the verdicts. Does it really say only in the home?
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,954
    Marylandstan
    No, Justice Alito said, "most notably" in the home, meaning "as an example".

    Sorry, misplaced my quotation mark...

    Sorry, "most notibly" is not used in the opinion by Alito. Guys the term is "most accute” in the home"

    what is the defination of accute? Doesn't this mean less importantly in other places or outside the home?
    just sayin, no arguments from me....

    See page 19 of the opinion.
    "Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the answer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day,15 and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554
    U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 26); see also id., at ___ (slip op., at56) (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).
    Explain-ing that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred
    firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at ___ (slip op., at 57) see also id., at ___ (slip op., at 56) (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” of self-defense); id., at ___ (slip op., at 57) (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessen-tial self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.”"

    Hey, Please read the last sentance. "For the core lawful purpose of self-defense." Does this say WHERE, Or am I dead wrong?

    I'm pretty sure I could argue this better than Gansler or the other clown!!!! :)
     
    Last edited:

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    31,000
    "States may impose “reasonable regulations” to prevent gun violence, Gansler said. Maryland has “a compelling governmental interest to not have people shot in the streets,” he added."

    The evidence from 39 Shall Issue states would certainly serve to derail that argument. Is real-world information admissable in courts, or are we strictly limited to partisan spin?
     

    Porsche

    Around...
    Jul 7, 2010
    125
    Not sure who this attorney is!!! Disappointing is an understandment..
    He stutters way to much, makes me belive he doesn't know what he is
    doing or doesn't know what the 2nd Ammendment really means
    as far as fundamental rights "in the home and outside the home".

    I sure wouldn't pay him to be my attorney...!! No Way!!

    LOL I was thinking of the public defender in My Cousin Vinny haha
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,954
    Marylandstan
    "States may impose “reasonable regulations” to prevent gun violence, Gansler said. Maryland has “a compelling governmental interest to not have people shot in the streets,” he added."

    The evidence from 39 Shall Issue states would certainly serve to derail that argument. Is real-world information admissable in courts, or are we strictly limited to partisan spin?

    compelling interest test Law Definition
    In constitutional law, a method for determining the constitutionality of a statute that restricts the practice of a fundamental right or distinguishes between people due to a suspect classification. In order for the statute to be valid, there must be a compelling governmental interest that can be furthered only by the law in question. Also called compelling governmental interest test and, in the case of a state statute, the compelling state interest test.

    A standard of Judicial Review for a challenged policy in which the court presumes the policy to be invalid unless the government can demonstrate a compelling interest to justify the policy.

    The strict scrutiny standard of judicial review is based on the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Federal courts use strict scrutiny to determine whether certain types of government policies are constitutional. The U.S. Supreme Court has applied this standard to laws or policies that impinge on a right explicitly protected by the U.S. Constitution, such as the right to vote. The Court has also identified certain rights that it deems to be fundamental rights, even though they are not enumerated in the Constitution.

    Once a court determines that strict scrutiny must be applied, it is presumed that the law or policy is unconstitutional. The government has the burden of proving that its challenged policy is constitutional. To withstand strict scrutiny, the government must show that its policy is necessary to achieve a compelling state interest. If this is proved, the state must then demonstrate that the legislation is narrowly tailored to achieve the intended result.

    So, let Gansler use his arguement of compelling government interest. By what I read above the court now must decide on what level of judicial review. This to me must be "strict scrutiny". Therefore, the law (in Maryland for CCW, good and substantial reason) is presumed unconsitutional. The Government (or in this case The State of Md) has the burden of proof.
    I see the state cannot argue that fact.

    The strict scrutiny standard is the most thorough analysis. The purpose, objective, or interest being pursued by the government must be "compelling". Also, the means to achieve the purpose, objective, or interest is reviewed to determine if it is "narrowly tailored" to the accomplishment of the governmental purpose, objective, or interest. There must not be any less restrictive means that would accomplish the government’s objective just as well.
    (ie "good and substantial reason" is be defination to restictive.)

    Jessshhh... I can argue this case and win... anyone want to pay me to do it...:) :) :thumbsup::sarcasm:
    Gansler steped in it!!!!!
     

    Trapper

    I'm a member too.
    Feb 19, 2009
    1,369
    Western AA county
    So, basically, by arguing a "compelling state interest" Gansler has admitted that it is a right deserving of "strict scrutiny". Wonder if the judge will catch that....
     

    mrjam2jab

    Active Member
    Jul 23, 2010
    682
    Levittown, PA
    From the AP wire, concerning the Williams case, I wanted to get your opinions on this:

    Does this mean that since I own two homes, I can legally carry firearms between them? Is this open, or concealed carry?



    "If my client had been among the 7 percent of Marylanders that are wealthy enough to own two residences - two bona fide residences, he could transport the handgun anywhere he wanted to," Hopewell said..


    A literal reading....if you are rich than you can carry a gun. Doesn't say from residence to residence...it say "anywhere he wanted to".
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,954
    Marylandstan
    So, basically, by arguing a "compelling state interest" Gansler has admitted that it is a right deserving of "strict scrutiny". Wonder if the judge will catch that....

    Good question! We will not know the answer till the court makes a decision.
    Here is the Key..."Gansler said. Maryland has “a compelling governmental interest to not have people shot in the streets,” he added."

    having people shot in the streets here is definately not a compelling government interest. Anyone know the word misnomer?
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    BTW, MDS member "mr h" wins for posting the 1000th post in a thread that did not involve fart jokes, "plus-sized" pictures or gay humor.

    What he wins I have no idea.

    Just pointing out how well these threads have gone. :thumbsup:

    Oh, my...

    I had no idea!!!

    I want to thank... well... probably no one in particular, but I do feel privileged to have had the opportunity to contribute--in however small a way--to the cause.

    :D:D:D

    Seriously, though...

    Reading the information on this week's activity, I worry for the Williams case. My main issue there is whether the Girlfriend's house--where he is presumably welcomed, and he (again, presumably) stays as a guest--is to be considered a bona fide residence (as a hotel, etc) in Maryland. I transport regularly to a residence owned by a family member, and by my reading it seems to not be a problem I should anticipate.

    As for the Woolard/SAF case... sounds like Gansler, et al are on the ropes. WTG, Mr. Gura (and friends).
     
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