letting friend borrow registered firearm

lax · Jul 15, 2009

What are the laws about letting a friend borrow a registered firearm?

novus collectus · Jul 15, 2009

First, except for full auto and some handguns on the "assault pistols" list there is no mandatory registration. I think you mean "regulated firearms".

As long as the person is at least 21 years old and can legally posses firearms, then you can make a temporary gratuitous loan of your regulated firearm to them. The law was interpreted three years ago by MD's highest court that you may make a "temporary gratuitous loan" of a regulated firearm.

novus collectus · Jul 15, 2009

The Court of Appeals found that the temporary gratuitous exchange or loan of a regulated handgun between two adult individuals, who are otherwise permitted to own and obtain a regulated handgun, does not constitute an illegal “transfer” of a firearm in violation of § 442(d). The plain language of § 442(d), when construed in harmony with the rest of the subheading, reveals that “transfer” can only refer to a permanent exchange of title or possession and does not include gratuitous temporary exchanges.

.....Todd Lin Chow v. State of Maryland, No. 99 September Term, 2005, filed July 27, 2006. Opinion by Cathell, J.

http://www.courts.state.md.us/publications/amicus/amicus8_06.html#Chow

Boondock Saint · Jul 16, 2009

Would it be possible to legally loan regulated firearms to someone who hasn't watched the MSP safety video or has no such other "qualification" to own a gun?

novus collectus · Jul 16, 2009

Boondock Saint said:
Would it be possible to legally loan regulated firearms to someone who hasn't watched the MSP safety video or has no such other "qualification" to own a gun?

YOu only need to worry about the "training" if you sell, rent or transfer a regulated firearm and this is neither because it is considered a temporary gratuitous loan (according to the MD Court of Appeals). YOu do not need the training video to build your own handgun or to own a handgun you brought with you when moving in from out of state either so there is no "qualification" to own a regulated firearm (other than age and not being a prohibitted person).

fivepointstar · Jul 16, 2009

If he's a good friend and you know him but I'd get something in writing...but that's just me. Also as long as he's not a felon, I doubt you can TGL to a felon. If he gets busted it'll be awhile before you get it back or I don't even what to think if its used in a crime.

just thinking of worse case scenarios

ewarfare · Jul 16, 2009

I have a question along the same realm: Can a temporary loan be done between two people that live in separate states?

mikec · Jul 16, 2009

That becomes a Federal thing since it involves crossing state lines and not a matter of state law. Novus, what does Google show you???

novus collectus · Jul 16, 2009

fivepointstar said:
If he's a good friend and you know him but I'd get something in writing...but that's just me. Also as long as he's not a felon, I doubt you can TGL to a felon. If he gets busted it'll be awhile before you get it back or I don't even what to think if its used in a crime.

just thinking of worse case scenarios

You cannot knowingly do a temporary gratuitous loan to a prohibitted person, but that same case the MD Court of Appeals actually involved a felon as the loanee and the high court also answered this question of it is illegal to unknowibly temporarily and gratuitously loan a regulated firearm to a prohibitted person and they said no it is not.

CRIMINAL LAW - WEAPONS - MANUFACTURE, SALE, GIFT, LOAN, POSSESSION, OR USE - THE TEMPORARY GRATUITOUS EXCHANGE OR LOAN OF A REGULATED HANDGUN BETWEEN TWO ADULT INDIVIDUALS, WHO ARE OTHERWISE PERMITTED TO OWN AND OBTAIN A REGULATED HANDGUN, DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ILLEGAL “TRANSFER” OF A FIREARM.

CRIMINAL LAW - NATURE AND ELEMENTS OF CRIME - CRIMINAL INTENT AND MALICE - IN GENERAL - THE INCLUSION OF THE WORD “KNOWINGLY” IN MARYLAND CODE (1957, 1996 REPL. VOL., 2002 SUPP.), ARTICLE 27, § 449(f), PLACED IN CONTEXT WITH THE STATUTE AS A WHOLE, INDICATES A SPECIFIC INTENT MENS REA....

....In addition, petitioner argued that he did not “knowingly” violate the statute, pursuant to § 449(f). ....

....Held: Reversed. The Court of Appeals found that the temporary gratuitous exchange or loan of a regulated handgun between two adult individuals, who are otherwise permitted to own and obtain a regulated handgun, does not constitute an illegal “transfer” of a firearm in violation of § 442(d). The plain language of § 442(d), when construed in harmony with the rest of the subheading, reveals that “transfer” can only refer to a permanent exchange of title or possession and does not include gratuitous temporary exchanges. The Court also concluded that the inclusion of the term “knowingly” in § 449(f) creates a specific intent mens rea for violations of that subsection.

http://www.courts.state.md.us/publications/amicus/amicus8_06.html#Chow

novus collectus · Jul 16, 2009

ewarfare said:
I have a question along the same realm: Can a temporary loan be done between two people that live in separate states?

mikec said:
That becomes a Federal thing since it involves crossing state lines and not a matter of state law. Novus, what does Google show you???

Federally you can temporarily loan (or rent) a firearm (any non-NFA firearm) to the resident of another state for sporting purposes without going through an FFL, but only if it is legal by the state laws to do so too.
In MD it cannot be a rent and has to be a gratuitous loan and not "a permanent exchange".
The sporting purposes part only seems to apply when it crosses state lines. For the TGL in MD between two MD residents the sporting purposes does not seem to apply and it seems as if you can TGL a regulated firearm for any purpose including self defense IMHO.

mikec · Jul 17, 2009

So, your cousin Vince wants to shoot some three gun matches but does not own an AR. You own ten and loan him one for three months. Vince lives in PA, you in MD. This would be Kosher with the Fed's?

(provided Vince is not a prohibited person and the gun is legal in both states.)

novus collectus · Jul 17, 2009

mikec said:
So, your cousin Vince wants to shoot some three gun matches but does not own an AR. You own ten and loan him one for three months. Vince lives in PA, you in MD. This would be Kosher with the Fed's?

(provided Vince is not a prohibited person and the gun is legal in both states.)

As far as the feds go, yes it is fine because it is for sporting purposes as I understand it. As far as MD goes that is an unanswered question because the Chow case was about two or three days time. However the one link of the case I found seems to say the court basically said if it is not permanent, then it is remporary regardless of the time period (I am not a lawyer). Also once out of state the MD law does not seem to apply anyway so it reverts back to PA and fed laws.
Since PA does not seem to care about ARs and since the feds allow such loans for sporting purposes, it would be kosher as I see it.

5) for any person (other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed
collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give,
transport, or deliver any firearm to any
person (other than a licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer,
or licensed collector) who the transferor
knows or has reasonable cause to believe
does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity,
does not maintain a place of business
in) the State in which the
transferor resides; except that this
paragraph shall not apply to (A) the
transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of
a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate
succession of a firearm by, a person
who is permitted to acquire or
possess a firearm under the laws of the
State of his residence, and (B) the loan
or rental of a firearm to any person for
temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/18usc_chap44.pdf

Since some hunting trips in places like Alaska can last more than three months or more, I do not see why a three month loan to someone for a round of competitions for three months would be any different.

novus collectus · Jul 17, 2009

ewarfare said:
I have a question along the same realm: Can a temporary loan be done between two people that live in separate states?

mikec said:
That becomes a Federal thing since it involves crossing state lines and not a matter of state law. Novus, what does Google show you???

As I understand it it is ok federally IF it is legal in both states. However if there is an issue with one state, the fed application of particular law to this particular situation might not apply to the loaner and might only apply to the loanee because it might be different than actual tranfers of firearms where the feds spell out it must be legal for both parties in both states to do transfers.
Interesting question regardless.

BearsTwice · Jul 17, 2009

thanks......

novus collectus said:
Federally you can temporarily loan (or rent) a firearm (any non-NFA firearm) to the resident of another state for sporting purposes without going through an FFL, but only if it is legal by the state laws to do so too.
In MD it cannot be a rent and has to be a gratuitous loan and not "a permanent exchange".
The sporting purposes part only seems to apply when it crosses state lines. For the TGL in MD between two MD residents the sporting purposes does not seem to apply and it seems as if you can TGL a regulated firearm for any purpose including self defense IMHO.

Thanks for your patient and knowledgeable responses to the questions presented in here (some are pretty lame).

I've learned much.

~~JMG

novus collectus · Jul 18, 2009

This is MD, we are somewhat battered gun owners who have been intimidated by the confusing MD and fed gun laws so all questions are understandable and are welcome.

By the way, everyone please remember I am not a lawyer.

IcedC · Jul 20, 2009

I'm moving out of the country for 3 years, can I TGL my glock and AR15s to my brother in PA without paperwork?

novus collectus · Jul 20, 2009

IcedC said:
I'm moving out of the country for 3 years, can I TGL my glock and AR15s to my brother in PA without paperwork?

That might be pushing the fed's "temporary" part. However, storing it at your brother's and him having access to them for sporting purposes as long as it is not a transfer of ownership or title should be ok in my book, but I am not a lawyer and I do not know what PA might say about it.
Another possibility is if you plan on residing at your brother's for a period of time before moving out of the country and maybe maintain it as another of your residences you plan on returning to then that should cover all situations because you are either a dual resident or just a resident of PA when the loan/transfer/storing occured.

ewarfare · Jul 20, 2009

novus collectus said:
As I understand it it is ok federally IF it is legal in both states. However if there is an issue with one state, the fed application of particular law to this particular situation might not apply to the loaner and might only apply to the loanee because it might be different than actual tranfers of firearms where the feds spell out it must be legal for both parties in both states to do transfers.
Interesting question regardless.

Thanks for the great info. Would occasional target shooting at the local range qualify for "sporting purposes?" I'm guessing what qualifies as "sporting" isn't clearly defined anywhere. I don't do any organized shooting at all.

novus collectus · Jul 21, 2009

ewarfare said:
Thanks for the great info. Would occasional target shooting at the local range qualify for "sporting purposes?" I'm guessing what qualifies as "sporting" isn't clearly defined anywhere. I don't do any organized shooting at all.

Yes, as I gather and guess any sporting use counts. SO if let's say someone wanted to borrow a firearm for self defense, they would also have to be borrowing it accross state lines for sporting purposes.

I am not a lawyer.

Jim Keenan · Jul 22, 2009

If you live in MD, you can loan a gun to someone from out of state to use IN MD. If your PA buddy comes to MD to hunt, you can loan him a gun. What you can't do, under federal law, is to sell him a gun (whereever the deal takes place), or to loan him a gun to take to PA with him or take a gun to PA to loan to him there.

Jim

letting friend borrow registered firearm

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