VICTORY IN PALMER!!!!

kcbrown · Aug 2, 2014

mpdc4511 said:
It's not so much as "what kind of training" as it is the logistics of slowly training 4,000 cops how to respectfully act towards people carrying weapons legally. My department has had almost ZERO interaction with lawful carriers because it's 100% illegal in D.C. unless your a cop.

That last suggests an approach: treat someone who is armed as if they're a cop until you verify that they're a bad guy.

You and/or your fellow officers may already know that which you need.

How do you deal with plain-clothesed LEOs? And what do they do aside from showing their credentials that makes the interaction go smoothly?

swinokur · Aug 2, 2014

Given what Judge Scullin ruled, I don't see DC being able to pick and choose what states they would honor for reciprocity. Seems like all or nothing to me. He cited the 14A IIRC. That's seems like it's gonna be a tall order to challenge for DC.

IANAL

Anubis · Aug 2, 2014

mpdc4511 said:
It's not so much as "what kind of training" as it is the logistics of slowly training 4,000 cops how to respectfully act towards people carrying weapons legally. My department has had almost ZERO interaction with lawful carriers because it's 100% illegal in D.C. unless your a cop. You can't train 4,000 people properly, overnight, with an email. I get 100 emails a day and thanks to actually being on the street I delete 85 of them.

If they had training where Carriers came in and gave there prespective as to why they carry, how they carry, and generally showed they were normal huimans and not the drug dealers that D.C. is plagued with who we usually catch with guns then it would be a better senario.

As perviously stated, I want this roll out to be a super positive experience for both LEO's and CCWer's. I can't argue with your anger on "right delayed, right denyed" but a win is a win and lets make it positive instead of rushing into it and not playing the hand well. Why go all in everytime when you can slow play and take more with you when the hand is done??? I just threw a year out there, if they can logistically train 4,000 in less then I'm all for it. It won't look good trying to change the way 4,000 people did things by taking 2,000 of them off the street for a couple days and 2,000 of the street for another couple days.

I'd actually like to know that answer as well. How many people were harassed?? How many perople were carrying?? I can't answer that because the guys that were didn't show up in my area. What I can say is that your negative and nothing I've seen you post has any real value for anyone. You can be angry and say I want to violate rights but I think my posts clearly state that I want to do the opposite and want this to be a safe, respectful, role model, roll out.

Also the rest of your negative comments that have zero merit towards anything will be ignored. I like having intelligent debate and haring any side anyone wanys to shoot my way but clearly you've failed.

I don't post very often so I don't know MPDC from Adam. Or his views on restricting rights. But this has to be one of the best laid out posts concerning the topic at hand. This is the nations capital. Let's set an example here and not get all redneck (not saying that's what happened here) on ccw. It's been what? 60 years? I don't think one year, or hell, I'd take two if it ensures (like MPDC said) "a super positive experience", will hurt anything! Again, set an example and give nothing to the opposition to use as ammo against it.

press1280 · Aug 2, 2014

wolfwood said:
I don't know D.C. at all.
Based upon my knowledge of Hawaii, I can safely predict that when Hawaii goes shall issue there will not be a massive surge in CCW applications. That simply is the culture of Hawaii.

Assuming D.C. goes shall issue will we actually see a massive surge of people legally carrying or is it more likely going to be less than 1 percent of the population

Not too many DC residents I suspect, but I could see more non-residents (from VA/MD) trying, especially ones that already can carry in their home state.

press1280 · Aug 2, 2014

swinokur said:
Given what Judge Scullin ruled, I don't see DC being able to pick and choose what states they would honor for reciprocity. Seems like all or nothing to me. He cited the 14A IIRC. That's seems like it's gonna be a tall order to challenge for DC.

IANAL

The 14th A challenge was ruled not ripe IIRC, but he simply said the non-resident plaintiff's 2A challenge was enough that they couldn't deny him either.
The opinion doesn't reference reciprocity, but I suspect DC either has to issue permits to non-residents or accept out of state permits, maybe not all permits but at least FL,AZ,UT permits so someone from VT or a restrictive state has a way to be compliant in DC.

daNattyFatty · Aug 2, 2014

kcbrown said:
How do you deal with plain-clothesed LEOs? And what do they do aside from showing their credentials that makes the interaction go smoothly?

It varies from agency to agency. Some will use a color of the day or code word/phrase. There are other methods out there that I won't discuss.

Though, speaking for my agency, which is a large department, the onus is on the plain clothes LEO to ensure the safety of the interaction. I suspect most other departments have similar guidelines.

Inigoes · Aug 2, 2014

Anubis said:
I don't post very often so I don't know MPDC from Adam. Or his views on restricting rights. But this has to be one of the best laid out posts concerning the topic at hand. This is the nations capital. Let's set an example here and not get all redneck (not saying that's what happened here) on ccw. It's been what? 60 years? I don't think one year, or hell, I'd take two if it ensures (like MPDC said) "a super positive experience", will hurt anything! Again, set an example and give nothing to the opposition to use as ammo against it.

If DC managed for 3 days to not be a wildwest, everyone will be fine.

press1280 · Aug 2, 2014

Question for Esq

Esq-A long winded question here. I'm curious about Scullin's order. If DC appeals to the DC Circuit, and the DC Circuit also rules for Palmer, could the order be changed? Meaning instead of having the DC codes struck until a 2A-compliant licensing law is enacted, the DC Circuit does what was done in Moore and give DC more time to simply enact a licensing scheme. Which then means DC could adopt a MD/NJ may issue and the case is done. Then we'd have to get another round of plaintiffs and start from square one to challenge the new licensing scheme, taking a few more years unless SCOTUS acts in the interim.

Is this a possibility? (Please say no or not likely)

swinokur · Aug 2, 2014

There will be an adjustment period, for sure. If and when it happens, there will be some incidents no matter how much or how little training the LEO's get. No one can forsee what maight happen. I don't think a 3 day period with no trouble is indicative of much, since very few people knew about the ruling and probably didn't come into DC just to carry. Give it time. But something's going to happen no matter what. I am betting the more training the LEO's receive, the better the outcome for everybody. Maybe an email will suffice, maybe not. The scenarios outlined in Lanier's order were not well thought out IMO. Maybe some real life in service training for the lads and laddies in blue would help. You know at some point someone is going to violate a TPM restriction.. Too many different rules and bldgs not to.

Like some opinions on CCW training, I think some training for LEO's would be very helpful. How much and when I will leave to the folks who are either LEO's or have some experience with this. Certainly many of us are just offering opinions, not anything based on other real facts.

ETA-And it's not just MPD. All the LEO's in DC will have to be familiar with the new law if it is upheld and DC has to issue. That's a lot of cops who may not get nearly as much training as MPD might get, if any.

Brooklyn · Aug 2, 2014

ryan_j said:
I agree. The Texas CHL course is actually pretty informative and relevant. They cover a number of things that are actually pretty useful, including non-violent dispute resolution and signage, where you can/cannot carry and also reciprocity.

The range qual is really not that hard and I have never heard of anyone failing it.

Any idea what might happen if we only played on side of the argument and forced them to supply their side of the argument ? Ever wonder if those in texas working to liberalize their laws further might be less willing to help us on national carry if we start making concessions on their behalf ?

Brooklyn · Aug 2, 2014

CypherPunk said:
I'm not sure I would begin any negotiation with anti's by offering concessions at the get-go.

Anti's are by and large not rational, not fact driven and rarely play fair.

It not up to us to negotiate anyway. They have to propose, then we challenge. We can go back to court.. they know court risks another shot at scotus

Brooklyn · Aug 2, 2014

mpdc4511 said:
You've avoided every ? And valid point I've raised.......you and I are done here.

We all understand that police citizen communication will be critical to avoid 'incidents' . But its not just the police that need to be trained in how to respond. I don't know if time alone will do it. Citizen will need to be be instructed how to respond as well.

I share your concerns but I think public debate can get us there. And until we do time is just a tool, evidence suggests that DC will use the delay but not do any of the work to get us there.

Frankly the dialog will occur here, mostly., Is too important not to keep at it.

joppaj · Aug 2, 2014

Three days didn't prove a thing. DC is NOT like most cities where you have one large municipal department and maybe 2 or 3 smaller ones handling things like housing and transit. I think there are 26 departments in DC and they are overwhelmingly federal. NOTHING in this ruling changes carrying a weapon on federal property.

Here's an example I give to people that know the area around Union Station. If a criminal committed a simple purse snatch and ran from the area next to a metro train, he could well start in the realm of AMTRAK Police. A few foot steps and he's dealing with Transit Authority Police (or whatever they're actually called). As soon as he sets foot outside, he's likely in the realm of the Metropolitan Police Department (MPD). If he runs across Columbus Square, he's in the territory of US Park Police (USPP). Cross Mass Ave and you hit the jurisdiction of US Capitol Police (USCP). Run straight down first street and you'll enter the primary jurisdiction of the Supreme Court Police. USCP absorbed the Library of Congress police a few years ago, so you re-enter USCP turf until you reach the Capitol South Metro station, where MPD, USCP and MTA may all have some jurisdiction. You went about 5 blocks...

He could have encountered Bureau of Engraving and Printing Police; Federal Protective Services and probably housing or library police had he gone the other way. Don't forget US Marshals down at the Court House...

DC CAN make this an outstanding roll out and MPD WILL be lead for everyone else to follow. Assuming that an email will suffice to overturn decades of training is unrealistic. I hope the legal affairs folks at all of these departments are working with their training staffs right now to be ready in case 90 days see the ruling upheld.

ryan_j · Aug 2, 2014

mpdc4511 said:
It's not so much as "what kind of training" as it is the logistics of slowly training 4,000 cops how to respectfully act towards people carrying weapons legally. My department has had almost ZERO interaction with lawful carriers because it's 100% illegal in D.C. unless your a cop. You can't train 4,000 people properly, overnight, with an email. I get 100 emails a day and thanks to actually being on the street I delete 85 of them.

That's not going to take a whole year. Besides, Virginia already does it and that's like right next door. Even the DC Metro goes into VA. Learn from them. I'm sure some in your dept live in VA.

It doesn't seem like it's rocket science at all. In fact if it takes a year to adjust to something as simple as citizen carry, I can't imagine what would happen for something bigger and it almost shakes your faith in the city and PD to not be able to adjust quickly.

BeoBill · Aug 2, 2014

joppaj said:
Three days didn't prove a thing. DC is NOT like most cities where you have one large municipal department and maybe 2 or 3 smaller ones handling things like housing and transit. I think there are 26 departments in DC and they are overwhelmingly federal. NOTHING in this ruling changes carrying a weapon on federal property.

Here's an example I give to people that know the area around Union Station. If a criminal committed a simple purse snatch and ran from the area next to a metro train, he could well start in the realm of AMTRAK Police. A few foot steps and he's dealing with Transit Authority Police (or whatever they're actually called). As soon as he sets foot outside, he's likely in the realm of the Metropolitan Police Department (MPD). If he runs across Columbus Square, he's in the territory of US Park Police (USPP). Cross Mass Ave and you hit the jurisdiction of US Capitol Police (USCP). Run straight down first street and you'll enter the primary jurisdiction of the Supreme Court Police. USCP absorbed the Library of Congress police a few years ago, so you re-enter USCP turf until you reach the Capitol South Metro station, where MPD, USCP and MTA may all have some jurisdiction. You went about 5 blocks...

He could have encountered Bureau of Engraving and Printing Police; Federal Protective Services and probably housing or library police had he gone the other way. Don't forget US Marshals down at the Court House...

DC CAN make this an outstanding roll out and MPD WILL be lead for everyone else to follow. Assuming that an email will suffice to overturn decades of training is unrealistic. I hope the legal affairs folks at all of these departments are working with their training staffs right now to be ready in case 90 days see the ruling upheld.

That's exactly right, and well put except for one point. As you noted, there is a bunch of Federal property in DC, and the jurisdiction lines can get messy (and sometimes do - see Navy Yard shooter). Bear in mind that Federal jurisdictions are unaffected by the ruling. And again, you're absolutely right - it's going to take years for MD and VA visitors and DC residents to get used to the "new normal" of permitted carrying.

In the meantime, I'd like to offer one piece of advice. Don't act like a jerk and you won't be treated like a jerk. This has worked for me for more than a half century. We're going to be making some history in DC. Don't spoil it for everyone.

swinokur · Aug 2, 2014

In DC MTA cops=Metro Transit Police

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/transit_police/

joppaj · Aug 2, 2014

swinokur said:
In DC MTA cops=Metro Transit Police

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/transit_police/

Somehow I never remember that one (and was feeling too lazy to google it).

swinokur · Aug 2, 2014

Another example of a multi jurisdictional area is Columbia Island on the GW Parkway in VA. The GW PW is patrolled by USPP, but as soon as you hit the Island, you're in DC for about a mile, so DC law would apply. Not that it would happen but it illustrates the TPM and legal issues that could arise when and if carry is allowed. MPD could also be involved here as well.

Although if DC gets carry, the NPS property would also be ok for carry as discussed earlier.

smokey · Aug 2, 2014

mpdc4511 said:
It's not so much as "what kind of training" as it is the logistics of slowly training 4,000 cops how to respectfully act towards people carrying weapons legally. My department has had almost ZERO interaction with lawful carriers because it's 100% illegal in D.C. unless your a cop. You can't train 4,000 people properly, overnight, with an email. I get 100 emails a day and thanks to actually being on the street I delete 85 of them.

If they had training where Carriers came in and gave there prespective as to why they carry, how they carry, and generally showed they were normal huimans and not the drug dealers that D.C. is plagued with who we usually catch with guns then it would be a better senario.

As perviously stated, I want this roll out to be a super positive experience for both LEO's and CCWer's. I can't argue with your anger on "right delayed, right denyed" but a win is a win and lets make it positive instead of rushing into it and not playing the hand well. Why go all in everytime when you can slow play and take more with you when the hand is done??? I just threw a year out there, if they can logistically train 4,000 in less then I'm all for it. It won't look good trying to change the way 4,000 people did things by taking 2,000 of them off the street for a couple days and 2,000 of the street for another couple days.

I'd actually like to know that answer as well. How many people were harassed?? How many perople were carrying?? I can't answer that because the guys that were didn't show up in my area. What I can say is that your negative and nothing I've seen you post has any real value for anyone. You can be angry and say I want to violate rights but I think my posts clearly state that I want to do the opposite and want this to be a safe, respectful, role model, roll out.

Also the rest of your negative comments that have zero merit towards anything will be ignored. I like having intelligent debate and haring any side anyone wanys to shoot my way but clearly you've failed.

Thanks to you, joppa, and the rest of the LEOs for offering perspective from behind the badge on this. Joppa's post demonstrating the different jurisdictions was pretty informative and really highlights the complexity that has been created in DC. Who knew a town full of bureaucrats would have a lot of bureaucracy to deal with?

Moving forward, people are going to have to work with the LEOs to ensure there is proper training on both sides. Hopefully this takes the form of LEOs getting good training, people being educated on the law, and both working cooperatively with lots of understanding and patience until the everyday workings of this get figured out. Realistically, it'll likely be similar to other places that got carry...where politicians instruct police to be very conservative in the interpretation of the law, citizens challenge the restrictions in a civil manner...it may result in a lawsuit, and then retraining happens to loosen the infringements a little more. LEOs and people will likely be at odds with each other for a while, the responsibility still resting on the people voted into office instructing the LEOs. Throughout the whole process, patience and civility are everyone's best friends.

swinokur · Aug 2, 2014

Well said sir.

Look at the issues in Philly when folks attempted to legally OC there. The officers reacted badly and it cost the city a 25k judgement before things seemed to have settled down. I'm still not sure it's settled as far as the police are concerned. IIRC they are getting more training to prevent these kinds of incidents.I'm not here to argue the legalities or rights issues, only to illustrate when a law is implemented or struck down, there is going to be a learning curve for both sides. Let's be good ambassadors and prove to fence sitters we're not a threat to anyone and prove the DC politicians are wrong.

VICTORY IN PALMER!!!!

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Super Genius

In a State of Bliss

Active Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Head'n for the hills

Ultimate Member

In a State of Bliss

I stand with John Locke.

I stand with John Locke.

I stand with John Locke.

Sheepdog

Ultimate Member

Crank in the Third Row

In a State of Bliss

Sheepdog

In a State of Bliss

Attachments

2A TEACHER

In a State of Bliss

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics