SBR Questions

Pinecone · Feb 9, 2014

And some clarifications. This will be for a trust. I have read the FAQ and some threads.

1) It seems that when you make an SBR you must specify a barrel length. So if you want to have multiple uppers with different barrel lengths, they would each need a stamp?

2) I read that multiple calibers may be possible with one stamp. So one could have one SBR lower with multiple uppers? But with #1, you may need to have them all the same barrel length?

3) WRT #2, if you have other AR-15s rifles (lowers or complete rifles) are you OK as long as you do not assemble the SBR upper on one of the non-SBR lowers?

4) Are the surrounding states SBR friendly (specifically PA, WV, and VA)?

5) With all the above, and transport rules, it seems if you are looking at SBR suppressed, that an integral suppression, making the barrel over 16" makes more sense. Correct?

6) WRT #5, can you legally buy a suppressor and install it yourself on a short barrel (pinned and welded) or is it better to just buy the suppressed upper?

Thanks.

bmonast · Feb 9, 2014

Pinecone said:
And some clarifications. This will be for a trust. I have read the FAQ and some threads.

1) It seems that when you make an SBR you must specify a barrel length. So if you want to have multiple uppers with different barrel lengths, they would each need a stamp?

2) I read that multiple calibers may be possible with one stamp. So one could have one SBR lower with multiple uppers? But with #1, you may need to have them all the same barrel length?

3) WRT #2, if you have other AR-15s rifles (lowers or complete rifles) are you OK as long as you do not assemble the SBR upper on one of the non-SBR lowers?

4) Are the surrounding states SBR friendly (specifically PA, WV, and VA)?

5) With all the above, and transport rules, it seems if you are looking at SBR suppressed, that an integral suppression, making the barrel over 16" makes more sense. Correct?

6) WRT #5, can you legally buy a suppressor and install it yourself on a short barrel (pinned and welded) or is it better to just buy the suppressed upper?

Thanks.

Not an "expert" but do have some experience here.

1. With an AR use 7.5 inch for barrel length. You can always go larger on the same receiver but not smaller. One Stamp.

2. Multi Calibers, No. I had mine kicked back recently, they said pick one, so I chose 5.56.

3. Some people say Yes, just don't mate them up, others advise against. Personally, my SBR stamps have yet to come back (went pending in June) and I have not yet purchased my uppers. Better safe than sorry imo.

4. As far as I know Yes to all these. Delaware is OK for SBR but not suppressed. Need to get a Form 20 on file to move an SBR out of your home state. Just cant move them around like everything else.

5. I imagine it would, does such a product exist? I know there is a guy in VA that makes them for 1022's and such but I do not recall seeing one for an AR.

6. Pin the suppressor? Sorry can't help here. Personally I would not mess with it.

Hope this helps some.

d_c · Feb 9, 2014

Pinecone said:
5) With all the above, and transport rules, it seems if you are looking at SBR suppressed, that an integral suppression, making the barrel over 16" makes more sense. Correct?

Can't say what makes sense for you, but integral suppression (or are you just talking about permanently attached?) doesn't make much sense to me.

Going the integral suppressor route with 16" barrel vs. an SBR with detachable will probably mean saving at most a couple of inches in OAL and a couple hundred FPS of velocity, plus the cost of one tax stamp. But, you are already in for a tax stamp and year wait, and you end up with exactly one upper that does what you want.

If you go detachable with an SBR you pay for two stamps, wait the same amount of time, and end up with a lot more options - you can run multiple lengths and calibers with one suppressor, you could switch out to a non-SBR upper with the can when you want to go out of state, run the can on other rifles, etc...

Klunatic · Feb 9, 2014

You only need 1 stamp for the SBR. You can put longer uppers on the rifle as long as you keep the original configuration.

If you have a location you go to often to shoot you can file for a form 20 that can cover you for a year to transport back an forth from your primary storage location.

I wouldn't go integrally suppressed for exactly the reason you asked about different lengths and transport to states that don't allow suppressors. If you get a removable suppressor you can use it on multiple uppers.

NateIU10 · Feb 9, 2014

You may switch between calibers on any registered Short Barreled Rifle. The caliber listed on your Form 1 or Form 4 is based on the state of the firearm when the firearm is made or transferred. Once the firearm is registered as an SBR, you may put any length or caliber upper you want on the SBR lower. If the overall or barrel lengths are not the same as what is listed on the paperwork, that is also fine.

If you are making a permanent change, the NFA asks that you notify them of the change. Note, notifying the ATF of a permanent change is not a requirement, but the ATF does ask that the registrant notify the NFA Branch in writing of any permanent changes so that the NFRTR (NFA Database) will reflect an accurate description of the firearm.

What transportation restrictions would you avoid by possessing an SBR that you would not by possessing another NFA firearm (suppressor)?

You can always go larger on the same receiver but not smaller.

I have never heard this claim, and I have no idea why you think that it's true.

bmonast · Feb 9, 2014

I called them on the WV phone number last April and asked the question. That is what I was told, along with measure with the stock fully extended. Just relaying what they told me.

Afdiesel · Feb 9, 2014

I wouldn't trust doing anything out of the norm... Unless you have a determination letter from the technical branch. I wouldn't care who told me.

Pinecone · Feb 10, 2014

The point is not a 16" barrel with an pinned/integral suppressor, but say a 14.5" or 10.5" with pinned suppressor (like a pinned flash hider).

This way, no Form 20 for transport. As it is not an SBR.

Thanks for the comments.

Any body have a letter or words from ATF on the change in length or caliber?

d_c · Feb 10, 2014

Pinecone said:
The point is not a 16" barrel with an pinned/integral suppressor, but say a 14.5" or 10.5" with pinned suppressor (like a pinned flash hider).

This way, no Form 20 for transport. As it is not an SBR.

Thanks for the comments.

Any body have a letter or words from ATF on the change in length or caliber?

Why not just pin and weld the mount on a 14.5" for interstate transport with the can, and run a real shorty upper with the can in state? It's hard to see anything but negatives to permanently mounting the can.

smdub · Feb 11, 2014

Isn't a registered SBR receiver a SBR whether it has a short upper on it or not? A MG registered receiver is a MG even w/o the select fire parts in it. For an AR SBR, the receiver is the registered part. I wouldn't travel w/ it w/o filing a form 20 first. And you better bring your stamped form w/ you (no matter what upper configuration is on it)

IMBLITZVT · Feb 11, 2014

smdub said:
Isn't a registered SBR receiver a SBR whether it has a short upper on it or not? A MG registered receiver is a MG even w/o the select fire parts in it. For an AR SBR, the receiver is the registered part. I wouldn't travel w/ it w/o filing a form 20 first. And you better bring your stamped form w/ you (no matter what upper configuration is on it)

While that does seem somewhat logical, the answer is no.

Its only a SBR when it has the short barrel on it. That said, if its a tax paid lower, you are welcome to put any length Barrel on it whenever you like, above or below the 16" mark.

You can also Un-SBR it. Drop a 16"+ barrel on it and sell it as a standard rifle. Just let ATF know and they will cancel the stamp.

smdub · Feb 11, 2014

I knew you could un-SBR/AOW something if you contact the ATF and cancel the stamp. Also knew that you could put any upper on it while it was registered. But... (and I HATE to start an argument w/ someone who knows a LOT more than me about NFA items

)

Per the ATFs website:

"Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?

If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law."

That seems to imply that as long as you "retain control" of the short parts (and w/ constructive possession thats proven to not necessarily mean in your immediate possession) that the receiver is still an SBR and subject to regulations?

I now have some new SBRs and would like to stay on the ATFs good side so trying to learn all this

Edit: adding this which directly addresses the question:
"Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law."

So what exactly do they mean by "retain control"?

d_c · Feb 11, 2014

smdub said:
So what exactly do they mean by "retain control"?

According to this letter it means having with you when traveling:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/Transport%20a%20Title%20II%20as%20a%20Title%201%20across%20state%20lines.pdf

Cut to relevent parts, but please read the whole thing:

"Finally, if you place the long barrel on your registered SBR receiver [...] you may transport the long barreled weapon across state lines without completing the above-noted procedures and receiving permission from the BFA Branch. [...] However, in both of these instances, the short barreled upper must be left at home and cannot be transported across State lines [...]"

IMBLITZVT · Feb 11, 2014

cdb said:
without completing the above-noted procedures and receiving permission from the BFA Branch. [...] However, in both of these instances, the short barreled upper must be left at home and cannot be transported across State lines [...]"

Thats my understanding of it. I think the ATF is saying that the SBR receiver with a long barrel is a standard rifle. However constructive possession still applies... so if you have a SBR upper with you... then you have a SBR.

Pinecone · Feb 11, 2014

OK, so I need to do the SBR upper and a 16" upper that also fits the can.

Dave · Feb 11, 2014

you can still SBR a lower post Oct 1? I tried to read the other thread but just wound up confused.

Dave · Feb 11, 2014

nevermind. I guess you still just have to form 1 first and then just build it over 29"

rico903 · Feb 12, 2014

So my AR with a 10.5" barrel and extended stock is over 30" If it's under 29" collapsed is that a problem? I did measurements on a RR so I din't break any laws.

NeverSurrender · Feb 12, 2014

It's measured with the stock extended.

TNW · Feb 17, 2014

Another stupid question... I want to do a suppressed 300BLK SBR. Was hoping to do an 8.5 barrel. Is this legal with OAL requirements? Using basic subtraction it seems like it would be ballpark 27" OAL. It's hard to fill this paperwork out ahead of time. Sorry for the dumb question but every time I read one thing I feel like I find something that conflicts.

Or is it that it has to meet the OAL requirement at the time of manufacture, then anything can be slapped on?

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