Non FFL Shipping to C&R Holder

aht2131 · Aug 29, 2015

Hey Guys,
I have a C&R eligible rifle that a C&R holder out of state wants to buy. I do not hold a C&R and have never dealt with shipping of arms before. What is the proper method of shipping to comply with all legal requirements? Do I just get ID and proof of C&R and ship directly, or must I send it via an FFL?

rseymorejr · Aug 29, 2015

You need a signed copy of his C&R and you need to send him a copy of your ID so he can log it into his book

aht2131 · Aug 29, 2015

OK that sounds good. I'm glad its not more involved. Thanks!

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

aht2131 said:
OK that sounds good. I'm glad its not more involved. Thanks!

Not so fast....If you use UPS or FedEx, make sure to ship from a hub that can process firearms. Stores that handle UPS and FedEx will usually not handle or ship firearms. Call the regular FedEx or UPS customer service lines and ask about rules for shipping to an FFL (a C&R is an 03 FFL)

Sundazes · Aug 31, 2015

I would get a copy of his D/L along with his C&R BEFORE you ship.

Abulg1972 · Aug 31, 2015

sxs said:
Not so fast....If you use UPS or FedEx, make sure to ship from a hub that can process firearms. Stores that handle UPS and FedEx will usually not handle or ship firearms. Call the regular FedEx or UPS customer service lines and ask about rules for shipping to an FFL (a C&R is an 03 FFL)

I have never, ever had a FedEx/Kinkos store ask me any questions, much less to see licenses. I just drop the rifle and off she goes. UPS is not the same - they require copies of the recipient's license and a detailed description of the contents.

Boom Boom · Aug 31, 2015

Abulg1972 said:
I have never, ever had a FedEx/Kinkos store ask me any questions, much less to see licenses. I just drop the rifle and off she goes.

Do you lie if asked about the contents? You're also SOL if the firearm is lost or damaged during shipment since shipping of firearms is forbidden by written policy at local shipping centers like Kinkos and The UPS Store. For FedEx and UPS, you have to ship firearms from a hub/terminal.

swinokur · Aug 31, 2015

Fedex owns Kinkos so you can ship from a Fed Ex Kinkos store. UPS Stores are franchises so you cannot ship from them.

Federal Regs require you declare any shipment that contains a firearm, but not to a collector. Both UPS and Fed Ex policy require that they be notified if a shipment contains a firearm.

27 C.F.R. § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart C—Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

swinokur said:
Fedex owns Kinkos so you can ship from a Fed Ex Kinkos store. UPS Stores are franchises so you cannot ship from them.

Federal Regs require you declare any shipment that contains a firearm, but not to a collector. Both UPS and Fed Ex policy require that they be notified if a shipment contains a firearm.

Well, I'm certainly no expert...but I know for sure you can't pick up a firearm from those stores...in fact, you can't have ammo delivered to them. I almost had an ammo shipment that was redirected to Kinkos in Annapolis for convenience sent back to Graf and Sons...after I was initially informed I COULD redirect it and pick it up there. Kinkos did call and told me they shipped the ammo right back out as they have no secure place to hold it. I was able to have them intercept the shipment and hold it in Halethorpe...after jumping through hoops. I have been told point blank by FedEx it has to go to a hub that can handle 'dangerous' items. That's exactly what I did when I had to have factory service on my Smith revolver. I had to ship a shotgun out via UPS once and was told it should go out through Laurel...so that's also exactly what I did. Never had a problem with either shipping straight to my home except being there to provide an adult signature (the reason I redirected the ammo)

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

sundazes said:
I would get a copy of his D/L along with his C&R BEFORE you ship.

Yeppers...that's the most safe and usual way! You can verify the C&R's residence address that way. It's only legal to ship to a C&R at the address listed on the 03 FFL. Reduces the chance of some kind'a fraud.

swinokur · Aug 31, 2015

It may be up to the Fed Ex store. But UPS stores are franchises and cannot be used for delivery or shipment of firearms. i shipped a pistol back to Dan Wesson from the Fed Ex Kinko's on Rockville Pike with no issues. I did declare it to the store personnel.

Abulg1972 · Aug 31, 2015

Boom Boom said:
Do you lie if asked about the contents? You're also SOL if the firearm is lost or damaged during shipment since shipping of firearms is forbidden by written policy at local shipping centers like Kinkos and The UPS Store. For FedEx and UPS, you have to ship firearms from a hub/terminal.

A licensee, shipping to another licensee, is not required by law to disclose the contents to Fed Ex or anyone else. See the ATF regulation quoted above. Fed Ex policy just requires that you notify the carrier that you're shipping a firearm, which I always do. They shrug their shoulders and say "okay". Show me the Fed Ex rule that says that I can't ship a firearm through a FedEx/Kinkos store.

UPS always makes you provide a detailed description of the firearm in the shipping info. FedEx has never asked me, and they don't require anything in the shipping ID. I voluntarily tell them that I'm shipping a firearm but they have never asked me and they have never asked for a license, a certification, nada.

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

swinokur said:
It may be up to the Fed Ex store. But UPS stores are franchises and cannot be used for delivery or shipment of firearms. i shipped a pistol back to Dan Wesson from the Fed Ex Kinko's on Rockville Pike with no issues. I did declare it to the store personnel.

That's interesting....I wonder if it's because it was sent out on the very next truck? FedEx shipping wasn't a big deal to me as I am almost as close to the Crofton Hub as to the Annapolis Kinkos. Annapolis Kinkos was just more convenient because it was on my way home from work.

swinokur · Aug 31, 2015

Abulg1972 said:
A licensee, shipping to another licensee, is not required by law to disclose the contents to Fed Ex or anyone else. See the ATF regulation quoted above.

That's true, but the shippers policy does require it.

Fed Ex tariff rules

Upon presenting the goods for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to Carrier is required to notify Carrier that the shipment contains a firearm. The outside of the package(s) must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package(s) contains a firearm.

UPS

When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

but as you note, notification to the shipper is required by policy.

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

Abulg1972 said:
A licensee, shipping to another licensee, is not required by law to disclose the contents to Fed Ex or anyone else. See the ATF regulation quoted above. Fed Ex policy just requires that you notify the carrier that you're shipping a firearm, which I always do. They shrug their shoulders and say "okay". Show me the Fed Ex rule that says that I can't ship a firearm through a FedEx/Kinkos store.

All I'm telling you is that they directed me to a hub...and in conversation with Annapolis Kinkos, they stated they can't hold dangerous items there. That was, in fact, why they refused to take ammo...after I had called FedEx about redirecting it to Annapolis...and, yes I disclosed the ammo before redirecting as I knew of the direction they had previously given me regarding firearms. I would much rather, for convenience sake, shipped firearms out through Kinkos in Annapolis but was verbally informed I couldn't. Again, not too big a deal for me to go to Crofton.

Abulg1972 · Aug 31, 2015

sxs said:
Well, I'm certainly no expert...but I know for sure you can't pick up a firearm from those stores...in fact, you can't have ammo delivered to them. I almost had an ammo shipment that was redirected to Kinkos in Annapolis for convenience sent back to Graf and Sons...after I was initially informed I COULD redirect it and pick it up there. Kinkos did call and told me they shipped the ammo right back out as they have no secure place to hold it. I was able to have them intercept the shipment and hold it in Halethorpe...after jumping through hoops. I have been told point blank by FedEx it has to go to a hub that can handle 'dangerous' items. That's exactly what I did when I had to have factory service on my Smith revolver. I had to ship a shotgun out via UPS once and was told it should go out through Laurel...so that's also exactly what I did. Never had a problem with either shipping straight to my home except being there to provide an adult signature (the reason I redirected the ammo)

Again, show me the FedEx policy that says that you can't have a firearm or ammunition held at something other than a distribution hub. You will look a long time and come up with nothing, because there is no such policy.

I have run into situations where I call to have a package redirected and the individual on the other end gets his/her panties in a wad about a "gun" and tells me that I can't have it held, but that's not FedEx's policy.

swinokur · Aug 31, 2015

I think the confusion happens because store employees are not well trained in company policy. That's kind of obvious by the different experiences posted here. But nothing in the Fed Ex tariffs says a Fed Ex store cannot receive or ship a fiream.

The UPS policy does.

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

Abulg1972 said:
Again, show me the FedEx policy that says that you can't have a firearm or ammunition held at something other than a distribution hub. You will look a long time and come up with nothing, because there is no such policy.

I have run into situations where I call to have a package redirected and the individual on the other end gets his/her panties in a wad about a "gun" and tells me that I can't have it held, but that's not FedEx's policy.

Instruction was simply given verbally for the firearms and also for the ammo. But after the ammo redirection debacle (and in that case I was initially informed by phone it was fine), I would be wary. Also, in trying to catch the ammo before it was shipped back, I was told, verbally on the phone, that only hubs could handle dangerous items like ammo. To their credit, Kinkos in Annapolis did call as soon as they rejected the ammo allowing me to redirect the ammo to Halethorpe...at some degree of PITA. So the OP can take it as he will. I won't dispute what the written terms are given I was given conflicting info on ammo delivery and I haven't directly read that policy myself. I would, however, if I were the OP just verify everything with the shipper before hand. Then he would have a legitimate beef if something happened.

Boom Boom · Aug 31, 2015

sxs said:
Also, in trying to catch the ammo before it was shipped back, I was told, verbally on the phone, that only hubs could handle dangerous items like ammo. To their credit, Kinkos in Annapolis did call as soon as they rejected the ammo allowing me to redirect the ammo to Halethorpe...at some degree of PITA.

Ammo ships as ORM-D. No surprise that a non-hub rejects it. Might not be covered by their insurance policy.

Abulg1972 · Aug 31, 2015

sxs said:
Instruction was simply given verbally for the firearms and also for the ammo. But after the ammo redirection debacle (and in that case I was initially informed by phone it was fine), I would be wary. Also, in trying to catch the ammo before it was shipped back, I was told, verbally on the phone, that only hubs could handle dangerous items like ammo. To their credit, Kinkos in Annapolis did call as soon as they rejected the ammo allowing me to redirect the ammo to Halethorpe...at some degree of PITA. So the OP can take it as he will. I won't dispute what the written terms are given I was given conflicting info on ammo delivery and I haven't directly read that policy myself. I would, however, if I were the OP just verify everything with the shipper before hand. Then he would have a legitimate beef if something happened.

I don't doubt your story, but I'm just telling you that UPS and FedEx aren't the same sport. As I mentioned above, I tried to have a firearm directed to the Timonium FedEx/Kinkos. At one point, the woman asked me about the contents. I told her and she basically flipped out and acted like I was shipping an atomic bomb. I simply hung up, called back and spoke to a rational person.

Non FFL Shipping to C&R Holder

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