Weird issue with 9mm reloads

Uncle Duke · Jun 17, 2015

Sticky said:
Typically when one loads straight walled pistols, they bell the mouths to allow easy starting of the boolits.. If you don't crimp enough to remove this belling, it can cause issues with chambering and if you don't have enough crimp to prevent boolit setback, this can cause issues as well.

With a FCD die, you should be fine on crimp if it is properly setup.

Agreed. It's the setup piece I wonder about. Also, at what point in the plunk test is OP noting resistance? Hard to know just exactly what's being described, but the way the OP described it, it makes me wonder about the possibility of a crimp issue. OAL might not be what's keeping that cartridge from seating if resistance is such that what OP is saying is that there's no plunk at all, and he has to push that round down that barrel???

Sticky · Jun 17, 2015

Uncle Duke said:
Agreed. It's the setup piece I wonder about. Also, at what point in the plunk test is OP noting resistance? Hard to know just exactly what's being described, but the way the OP described it, it makes me wonder about the possibility of a crimp issue. OAL might not be what's keeping that cartridge from seating if resistance is such that what OP is saying is that there's no plunk at all, and he has to push that round down that barrel???

Good point.. When a round is seated too far out, usually you can't 'push' it in anymore, or you'll need to literally punch it back out of the rifling.

I usually measure the very end of the case as I crimp to see that I am crimping at least a few thousandths from the major diameter of the case where the boolit is engaged, to ensure I have not only removed any belling, but also to ensure adequate crimp to hold the boolit in place during recoil in the mag. I will also drag my calipers to the range to check the last couple of rounds after almost emptying the mag to ensure they are not being setback from insufficient crimping..

Uncle Duke · Jun 17, 2015

Sticky said:
Good point.. When a round is seated too far out, usually you can't 'push' it in anymore, or you'll need to literally punch it back out of the rifling.

I usually measure the very end of the case as I crimp to see that I am crimping at least a few thousandths from the major diameter of the case where the boolit is engaged, to ensure I have not only removed any belling, but also to ensure adequate crimp to hold the boolit in place during recoil in the mag. I will also drag my calipers to the range to check the last couple of rounds after almost emptying the mag to ensure they are not being setback from insufficient crimping..

Where in the process of that plunk test is that resistance noted comes to mind. Hell, if OP had a sizing die out of adjustment, maybe with too much concern for cracking a carbide insert? Or the setting started out ok, but the die started walking because the lock ring setting loosened? There's a few possibilities here.

erwos · Jun 17, 2015

The resistance comes pretty far in - think "where the extractor groove starts". Note that I have to smack the cartridge pretty hard to get it into the barrel all the way, it's more than just a bit of thumb pressure.

I'd be somewhat shocked if it was a crimping problem - I put a reasonable crimp on these reloads using the Lee FCD, and I can see where the crimp is. There's no apparent belling (that's an easy problem to spot, as they go).

Keep in mind that I'm using the Lee quick change bushings, so I'm not screwing around with lock rings all the time. I set it up, it stays set up (or so my testing has revealed).

Uncle Duke · Jun 17, 2015

All of that pressure you describe, yet no bullet markings? I'm still wondering about those case specs.

9mm Luger is actually a tapered cartridge. Can you put a caliper on the case head and the case mouth on both your known to be good Freedom round, and also your problem round? How close are you to .3910 and .3811 respectively? What are you reading?

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm Luger - 9mm Luger +P.pdf

guthook · Jun 21, 2015

erwos said:
The resistance comes pretty far in - think "where the extractor groove starts". Note that I have to smack the cartridge pretty hard to get it into the barrel all the way, it's more than just a bit of thumb pressure.
I'd be somewhat shocked if it was a crimping problem - I put a reasonable crimp on these reloads using the Lee FCD, and I can see where the crimp is. There's no apparent belling (that's an easy problem to spot, as they go).

Keep in mind that I'm using the Lee quick change bushings, so I'm not screwing around with lock rings all the time. I set it up, it stays set up (or so my testing has revealed).

That reeks of not enough crimp or an uneven crimp to me. Take some of the hard to insert rounds and feel around the lip to see if there is still a bit of belling present. It may only be on one side. I've had .45acp do this before. Worth a shot.

DanGuy48 · Jun 22, 2015

Good thread...see also

posts number 4, 7 and 8 in this thread linked, especially post #7. I read something similar to this a long time ago and it just made me too wary of fast burning powders used in handguns. Just something good to remember when fiddling with seating depth.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=177401

erwos · Jun 22, 2015

Guys, at 1.16 with 2.5gr TG, I'm nowhere near the limits of 9mm. I appreciate the call to caution, but there's no sequence of events in this particular case where going to 1.15 OAL with the same power load blows up my gun. I haven't had a chance to hit my reloading shed yet, but I'll let you all know how my experiments go.

I understand that TG is a power you don't want to mess around with... I'm being careful, I promise.

Oh, and as for the crimp, there's no detectable belling. That particular problem usually gets sorted out by my max gauge, which is why I was so confused when this load exhibited chambering problems.

guthook · Jun 23, 2015

erwos said:
Guys, at 1.16 with 2.5gr TG, I'm nowhere near the limits of 9mm. I appreciate the call to caution, but there's no sequence of events in this particular case where going to 1.15 OAL with the same power load blows up my gun. I haven't had a chance to hit my reloading shed yet, but I'll let you all know how my experiments go.

I understand that TG is a power you don't want to mess around with... I'm being careful, I promise.

Oh, and as for the crimp, there's no detectable belling. That particular problem usually gets sorted out by my max gauge, which is why I was so confused when this load exhibited chambering problems.

My go to load is 3.3gr TG, at the same 1.160" OAL with Berry's 147gr RN. It's still on the light side.

Try a bit more crimp and do the "drop in the chamber" test again. If it doesn't work, I'll just shut up and watch this thread from the sidelines. Got me all curious now.

erwos · Aug 4, 2015

OK, I FINALLY have had time to experiment more with all this. Sorry for the month of delay. I bought a Lee Loadmaster, so I suppose I was incentivized to nail this problem down.

First move was to try 1.155 OAL and then 1.5 OAL. No love.

Second move was to try Uncle Duke and Guthook's recommendation to taper crimp more. This worked! The round doesn't quite drop in to the barrel, but it will feed and eject properly. I assume that if I taper more, I will probably solve that completely (I only had time for a single attempt). This pisses me off a little because the interwebs kept warning me to be careful with the factory crimp die and doing too much taper crimp, and I feel like that worked against me. Clearly, these rounds needed substantially more taper crimp than I was giving them, and I must have just been getting lucky with the 158gr bullet's profile letting me avoid that.

I use the Lee Breech Lock system, so maybe I need to double check my seating die to make sure it's positioned correctly. And I should hunt down a cheap used SW9VE barrel so I can drop test right at the bench. Ah well.

Ironnewt · Aug 5, 2015

erwos said:
Hmm, this I did not know. Kinda assumed 147gr was just a shorter 160gr, but maybe that was a bad assumption. I'll see if I can't seat the bullets a little further and see if that fixes it. *ponder*

see what happens when "you ASS U ME"

erwos · Aug 5, 2015

Ironnewt said:
see what happens when "you ASS U ME"

Well, in my defense, it wasn't the seating depth that was the core issue, it was some interaction between the seating depth, the taper crimp, and the bullet profile. I've learned something new; I guess that's a good thing.

Uncle Duke · Aug 5, 2015

erwos said:
OK, I FINALLY have had time to experiment more with all this. Sorry for the month of delay. I bought a Lee Loadmaster, so I suppose I was incentivized to nail this problem down.

First move was to try 1.155 OAL and then 1.5 OAL. No love.

Second move was to try Uncle Duke and Guthook's recommendation to taper crimp more. This worked! The round doesn't quite drop in to the barrel, but it will feed and eject properly. I assume that if I taper more, I will probably solve that completely (I only had time for a single attempt). This pisses me off a little because the interwebs kept warning me to be careful with the factory crimp die and doing too much taper crimp, and I feel like that worked against me. Clearly, these rounds needed substantially more taper crimp than I was giving them, and I must have just been getting lucky with the 158gr bullet's profile letting me avoid that.

I use the Lee Breech Lock system, so maybe I need to double check my seating die to make sure it's positioned correctly. And I should hunt down a cheap used SW9VE barrel so I can drop test right at the bench. Ah well.

OP,

I won't say that the term "taper crimp" is a misnomer, but I'll throw this thought out there because the "taper crimp" term oftentimes tends to confuse or mislead people with regard to what is being accomplished when a taper crimp is applied. The exact definition of everything that is happening aside, remember that what you are in effect doing as much as anything with a taper crimp is to remove the belling that you applied to the case mouth to facilitate the bullet seating process. That thought regarding the removal of the belling is critical because the 9mm Luger cartridge, though it might not look this way to the eye, is actually a tapered rather than a straight walled cartridge. This cartridge is designed to headspace on the case mouth. That assumes that the case mouth can reach "home".

Visualize if you will a case mouth that has too much bell remaining from insufficient taper crimp to bottom on the case mouth at the "stop" within your barrel that the case mouth would otherwise.....if unencumbered.... drop and rest upon. If that case mouth bell is stopping the forward progress of the cartridge before it can drop completely "home", the result will be just that.......a cartridge that will drop as far as it can until the belling meets the inherent internal taper that can allow it to drop no further.

If this is what's happening in your scenario, the result by definition is a round that can't seat completely.

erwos · Aug 5, 2015

So, if I'm getting you right, I basically need to turn my seating die in some more (while maintaining the same OAL) because it's not getting rid of all the belling, and the FCD is just fixing that problem?

photoracer · Aug 5, 2015

I learned a few years ago, especially for 9x23mm, to use the barrel of the actual gun you are shooting the ammo in as the go/no-go gauge. Saved a lot of match issues.

guthook · Aug 5, 2015

erwos said:
So, if I'm getting you right, I basically need to turn my seating die in some more (while maintaining the same OAL) because it's not getting rid of all the belling, and the FCD is just fixing that problem?

Pretty much. Read the directions that came with your die when setting the crimp. Don't be discouraged if you get a crushed case or two, just back it up and try again.

Sometimes it helps to loosen everything up and start from scratch while going line by line from the directions, until you get the hang of what each step is achieving. Once you understand it, things will go a lot smoother when you set up your next caliber. :thumbsup:

erwos · Aug 11, 2015

OK, I had some more quality time to screw around with this problem while I was doing a Windows 10 upgrade on the shed computer yesterday (note: no powder or primers involved, I was safe!). Also made some progress on getting my Lee progressive together, but more on that in a future thread.

I totally reset my setup from scratch. Same issues. 160gr does the plunk test with no drama. 147gr fails it. OAL is the same (I tried 1.15 and 1.16 on both, and down to 1.12 on the 147gr). The issue is definitely not too much flaring (the case still plunks right in after the expander die). The FCD did not fix it, albeit it did get it to the point where I think it would have functioned (ie, plunk test failed but "push" test didn't). Adjusting the seating die for absurd amounts of "crimp" (ie, crush) also didn't fix it in any useful fashion.

I finally noticed that my 160gr bullets are .355 diameter, whereas my 147gr bullets are .356. Given that the 160grs are noticeably longer than the 147grs, I have finally come to the conclusion that my SW9VE barrel just does not like the combination of profile, coating hardness, and diameter.

This isn't really a satisfying conclusion to me, mostly because it seems like .356 "should" work. But life is way too short to deal with this, so I'll put the .356 147gr bullets to the side and just reload with the 160gr bullets (and try a few .355 147gr bullets next time I have to put in an order).

I hope this thread was useful to other people... it's hard to be a reloading newbie.

guthook · Aug 13, 2015

I wish you lived a little closer. I'd love to see what's going on here. Does anyone live up that way that can help erwos out?

Weird issue with 9mm reloads

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