The tiny NAAs are not intended for distance shooting. They are unabashed belly guns, meant for point blank to maybe 6 feet, when a perp is violating your personal space. Even a Ruger LCP is questionable beyond 10 feet for most people.
.22LR revolver for self defense
- Thread starter Minuteman
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The tiny NAAs are not intended for distance shooting. They are unabashed belly guns, meant for point blank to maybe 6 feet, when a perp is violating your personal space. Even a Ruger LCP is questionable beyond 10 feet for most people.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,281
Since the Spirit of Richard C. Davis ( aka the subsquent inventer of modern Body Armor). was invoced, let's look at the rest of the story.
His *Primary* weapon at the time was an Amnesty Registered 16ga SxS SBS. At the Famous mment in question, his SBS was in the shop for repairs, and his distant second choice was the H&R .22lr he used that fateful night.
Kudos to R.C. Davis for his legandary skill at Arms during the fateful evening, but the .22lr wasn't his choice by any means.
His *Primary* weapon at the time was an Amnesty Registered 16ga SxS SBS. At the Famous mment in question, his SBS was in the shop for repairs, and his distant second choice was the H&R .22lr he used that fateful night.
Kudos to R.C. Davis for his legandary skill at Arms during the fateful evening, but the .22lr wasn't his choice by any means.
good guy 176
R.I.P.
If you are insane enough to take a .22 lr to a gunfight, be my guest. Maybe the worst choice you'll ever make, and more likely, your last choice.
Take a Colt King Cobra, a Taurus model 608, any 1911 a Colt Python, any Glock, SA, Kahr or Kimber 9mm or better. And as far as training goes, when the perp surprises or confronts you, you'll forget most of what you trained for and it's pure reaction time when the heart is pumping wildly and the the hands are drenched with sweat. Under pressure, you'd better remain calm, in control, and get off a few well placed shots!
In a fight, you've got 3only -4 rounds to make a statement and then you'd better rely on Allah.
Lew--Ranger63
US Army (Ret-84)
Take a Colt King Cobra, a Taurus model 608, any 1911 a Colt Python, any Glock, SA, Kahr or Kimber 9mm or better. And as far as training goes, when the perp surprises or confronts you, you'll forget most of what you trained for and it's pure reaction time when the heart is pumping wildly and the the hands are drenched with sweat. Under pressure, you'd better remain calm, in control, and get off a few well placed shots!
In a fight, you've got 3only -4 rounds to make a statement and then you'd better rely on Allah.
Lew--Ranger63
US Army (Ret-84)
Magnumite
Ultimate Member
I'll take that, I didn't recall the SxS in for repair. Never said the 22 LR was his choice, it was a circumstance invoked decision.
Blacksmith101
Grumpy Old Man
- Jun 22, 2012
- 22,297
The basic physics of a gun fight means bigger, deeper, more frequent holes in the perp incapacitates him quicker. You need to use the best tools you can to achieve the above.
One hole is better than none. Five holes are better than one. Ten are better yet.
A .38 hole is better than a .22 hole and a .50 hole is better than a .45 hole.
Holes that go all the way through are better than holes a few inches deep. Holes that go all the way through count as two when calculating the leakage rate.
But the bottom line is the gun you actually have is better than the one you want to get someday. The gun in your hand is better than the one locked in the safe. The gun you can use accurately is better than the one that misses the target. The gun that works beats the one that jams.
Pick the gun or guns that lets you make big deep frequent holes in the threat as quickly as possible because you want to incapacitate the danger as soon as possible.
One hole is better than none. Five holes are better than one. Ten are better yet.
A .38 hole is better than a .22 hole and a .50 hole is better than a .45 hole.
Holes that go all the way through are better than holes a few inches deep. Holes that go all the way through count as two when calculating the leakage rate.
But the bottom line is the gun you actually have is better than the one you want to get someday. The gun in your hand is better than the one locked in the safe. The gun you can use accurately is better than the one that misses the target. The gun that works beats the one that jams.
Pick the gun or guns that lets you make big deep frequent holes in the threat as quickly as possible because you want to incapacitate the danger as soon as possible.
Bullets that go all the way through (i.e. FMJ) tend to inflict minimum soft tissue trauma. Bullets designed to not exit (i.e. defensive HP) tend to inflict massive soft tissue trauma. Perps with clean entrance and exit holes might continue an assault. Perps with hamburger for innards are instantly down for the count.
Blacksmith101
Grumpy Old Man
- Jun 22, 2012
- 22,297
Many expanding bullets have enough energy to go all the way through and depending on the angle of the shot you need enough energy to go all the way through in the shortest direction to be able to penetrate to the vitals at a bad angle. I would not recommend FMJ bullets but do recommend bullets with enough energy and mass to carry all the way to the vitals at the longest distance they may encounter which means at a shorter distance, front on perpendicular to the shooter, they may well fully penetrate. If you drive a fully expanding bullet all the way through you will have a small entrance a much larger exit and hamburger all the way through.
Here is an excellent .22LR snubby revolver (but pricy):
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2013/09/2...ent=2015-08-08&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter
For anyone just joining this discussion, it's a popular topic for many reasons.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a .22LR would be anyones first choice for a defensive caliber, unless... that person could not handle the recoil of a more formative round, or they wanted an economical to shoot gun that can do anything from plinking, to snake/varmint/feral dog defense, and yes, even self defense in a pinch.
Here is a good thread on calibers and self defense, I do not agree with everything stated in this forum: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
Here is an excellent video discussing the capability of the .22LR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVY4gT5P20
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2013/09/2...ent=2015-08-08&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter
For anyone just joining this discussion, it's a popular topic for many reasons.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a .22LR would be anyones first choice for a defensive caliber, unless... that person could not handle the recoil of a more formative round, or they wanted an economical to shoot gun that can do anything from plinking, to snake/varmint/feral dog defense, and yes, even self defense in a pinch.
Here is a good thread on calibers and self defense, I do not agree with everything stated in this forum: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
Here is an excellent video discussing the capability of the .22LR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVY4gT5P20
mancheechee
Daily Trigger
22lr is effective with shot placement.
My friend's father was killed in his convenience store by a thug in the hood in L.A...shot in the chest once with a 22lr pistol.
If one 22lr can take out a ground hog, I would think 5-10 rounds maybe a good deterrent with good placement?
My friend's father was killed in his convenience store by a thug in the hood in L.A...shot in the chest once with a 22lr pistol.
If one 22lr can take out a ground hog, I would think 5-10 rounds maybe a good deterrent with good placement?
I completely agree. I've often said, if a person truly becomes an 'expert' with a .22LR revolver, and are able to dump 8 or 9 rounds into a hand sized target at close range within a a few seconds - that's effective.
Caliber matters less than shot placement and penetration.
501st
Ultimate Member
- Jun 16, 2011
- 1,629
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
Something like that with 110 or 90 grain .38 special hp's almost negates the point of a .22lr revolver for self defense.
Something like that with 110 or 90 grain .38 special hp's almost negates the point of a .22lr revolver for self defense.
Not necessarily a 22lr pistol or revolver due to lower capacity, but with 25 rounds in my 22lr rifle loaded with Mini Mags ( due to reliability, not that they have significant extra power), I would never feel defenseless in HD situation. Double, even triple taps to almost same spot on the target are so easy with just a little bit of practice.
For every day carry, 22LR handgun may not be my fist choice, but still :
Let's not underestimate 22LR
For every day carry, 22LR handgun may not be my fist choice, but still :
Let's not underestimate 22LR
dreadpirate
Ultimate Member
The only thing that gives me pause to think is barrel length; I have seen You Tubes where the same 22lr round totally fails to expand due to lack of velocity and the difference between a snub nose and 4" barrel seemed to make a big difference. If it were me; I would want a full size revolver with 9 shots and 6" barrel. Even better - a convertible that lets me shoot 22 magnum. Then yes - I think a 22lr or 22 magnum would be an effective home defense weapon.
WeaponsCollector
EXTREME GUN OWNER
Thanks for the recommendation WeaponsCollector!
I'm going to post this Quip from John Farnam, every time I've asked him for permission to post his Quips in this forum he has always granted; I recommend you subscribe to his Quips yourself, and if you get a chance take some training from him and his outfit!
The point of this quip to me is two fold:
1) Nothing beats a revolver in reliability, especially when it comes to an everyday carry gun, and even more so for those of us who might not clean or test fire our EDC carry guns as much as we really should.
2) Train, train, and train like you plan to fight. This is one of the reasons why I shoot so much less IDPA the last couple years; I felt compelled to have a special gun and rig for shooting IDPA. Like many others, it was too easy for me to start losing track of why I wanted to shoot IDPA in the first place. I do enjoy the 'competition stress', brotherhood, and especially liked shooting BUG.
Ladies and gentlemen, John Farnam:
------------------------
13 Oct 15
Personal Readiness:
From a friend and colleague
“At our monthly pistol match last weekend, our courageous (and now
unpopular) match director included an optional thirty-round course of fire,
exclusively for legitimate concealed-carry pistols. The only requirement was that
the gun, and ammunition, used had to be one that the participant carries
regularly. He said, ‘Let’s use what you’re carrying, right now, what you
would have to rely upon to save your life... right now!’
No ‘match-guns,’ nor ‘race-guns’ were allowed.
Of the ten who participated, only three ‘carry’ guns functioned normally
through thirty rounds!
The rest (all semi-autos) malfunctioned continuously, including light hits,
mis-feeds, and failure to go fully into battery. These guns had all been
carried in a pocket or concealed holster and were all dirty, full of lint
and other debris. Some magazine springs were weak.
It was an eye-opener, especially for those whose guns would not function.
To a person, they all piously swore, amid their embarrassment, that they
cleaned their guns regularly, but that was obvious a self-serving lie. It was
also obvious these guns were seldom, if ever, actually fired before that
afternoon.”
Comment: Among those who profess to be “gun people,” there are too many “
pretenders,” not enough Operators. It is painfully obvious that almost
none of these Nimrods ever assiduously train with any kind of serious, carry
gun.
“Matches,” as described above, are customarily conducted under quaint
circumstances, with play guns and play ammunition.
With the entire world in such chaos, with our civilization becoming such a
dangerous place, one would think all American gun-owners would be getting
serious about real guns and real training.
Unhappily, nothing could be further from the truth! There is still scant
urgency, scant sobriety, scant earnestness associated with most competitive
events, and most participants themselves, as we see.
When fatal flaws are exposed, as in the foregoing, instead of honest
acknowledgment and repentance, we get feeble excuses and denial.
Genuine personal readiness demands better!
“Every man is a damn fool for at least five minutes every day; ‘wisdom’
consists in not exceeding that limit.”
Elbert Hubbard
/John
_______________________________________________
John Farnam's Quips mailing list
Dtiquips@clouds.com
Copyright 2015 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.
I'm going to post this Quip from John Farnam, every time I've asked him for permission to post his Quips in this forum he has always granted; I recommend you subscribe to his Quips yourself, and if you get a chance take some training from him and his outfit!
The point of this quip to me is two fold:
1) Nothing beats a revolver in reliability, especially when it comes to an everyday carry gun, and even more so for those of us who might not clean or test fire our EDC carry guns as much as we really should.
2) Train, train, and train like you plan to fight. This is one of the reasons why I shoot so much less IDPA the last couple years; I felt compelled to have a special gun and rig for shooting IDPA. Like many others, it was too easy for me to start losing track of why I wanted to shoot IDPA in the first place. I do enjoy the 'competition stress', brotherhood, and especially liked shooting BUG.
Ladies and gentlemen, John Farnam:
------------------------
13 Oct 15
Personal Readiness:
From a friend and colleague
“At our monthly pistol match last weekend, our courageous (and now
unpopular) match director included an optional thirty-round course of fire,
exclusively for legitimate concealed-carry pistols. The only requirement was that
the gun, and ammunition, used had to be one that the participant carries
regularly. He said, ‘Let’s use what you’re carrying, right now, what you
would have to rely upon to save your life... right now!’
No ‘match-guns,’ nor ‘race-guns’ were allowed.
Of the ten who participated, only three ‘carry’ guns functioned normally
through thirty rounds!
The rest (all semi-autos) malfunctioned continuously, including light hits,
mis-feeds, and failure to go fully into battery. These guns had all been
carried in a pocket or concealed holster and were all dirty, full of lint
and other debris. Some magazine springs were weak.
It was an eye-opener, especially for those whose guns would not function.
To a person, they all piously swore, amid their embarrassment, that they
cleaned their guns regularly, but that was obvious a self-serving lie. It was
also obvious these guns were seldom, if ever, actually fired before that
afternoon.”
Comment: Among those who profess to be “gun people,” there are too many “
pretenders,” not enough Operators. It is painfully obvious that almost
none of these Nimrods ever assiduously train with any kind of serious, carry
gun.
“Matches,” as described above, are customarily conducted under quaint
circumstances, with play guns and play ammunition.
With the entire world in such chaos, with our civilization becoming such a
dangerous place, one would think all American gun-owners would be getting
serious about real guns and real training.
Unhappily, nothing could be further from the truth! There is still scant
urgency, scant sobriety, scant earnestness associated with most competitive
events, and most participants themselves, as we see.
When fatal flaws are exposed, as in the foregoing, instead of honest
acknowledgment and repentance, we get feeble excuses and denial.
Genuine personal readiness demands better!
“Every man is a damn fool for at least five minutes every day; ‘wisdom’
consists in not exceeding that limit.”
Elbert Hubbard
/John
_______________________________________________
John Farnam's Quips mailing list
Dtiquips@clouds.com
Copyright 2015 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.
Alan3413
Ultimate Member
- Mar 4, 2013
- 17,183
tnoutdoors9 tested. 22lr for SD. The 40gr cci minimags actually penetrated deepest and did the most damage because it tumbled.
johnnyb2
Ultimate Member
Reagan
I just read this recently ( actually saw a video describing the assn. attempt ) but Hinkley was using some type of exploding .22lr round. I forget the make they mentioned, but did not know this till recently. But yes, a .22lr with well placed shots is not only better than anything, but better than many that a individual who doesn't train ( like most I agree also :-) with a larger caliber, but due to recoil cannot place the shots decently.
I just read this recently ( actually saw a video describing the assn. attempt ) but Hinkley was using some type of exploding .22lr round. I forget the make they mentioned, but did not know this till recently. But yes, a .22lr with well placed shots is not only better than anything, but better than many that a individual who doesn't train ( like most I agree also :-) with a larger caliber, but due to recoil cannot place the shots decently.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,281
Hey , that's cheating ! No fair bringing a Rifle to a pistol discussion !
Yes , varies from gun to gun , and ammo lot to lot n but rough rule of thumb - 4in-ish .22WMR revolver similar performance to .22lr from rifle . ( Both of which major step up from .22lr pistols , & snub .22WMR. In absolute terms , aproach " not totally suck" .) Of course take one step farther to .22WMR Rifle .
But yes , the TNOutdoor9 gel tests followed my previous expectations in general outline.
Stinger-ish light wt hyper vel HP are intended to blow up on sm varmits. In best scenarios , 36-40gr normal HV HP penetrate somewhere on spectrum of CF pistol rds, with worst case duplicate RN.
Yes , varies from gun to gun , and ammo lot to lot n but rough rule of thumb - 4in-ish .22WMR revolver similar performance to .22lr from rifle . ( Both of which major step up from .22lr pistols , & snub .22WMR. In absolute terms , aproach " not totally suck" .) Of course take one step farther to .22WMR Rifle .
But yes , the TNOutdoor9 gel tests followed my previous expectations in general outline.
Stinger-ish light wt hyper vel HP are intended to blow up on sm varmits. In best scenarios , 36-40gr normal HV HP penetrate somewhere on spectrum of CF pistol rds, with worst case duplicate RN.
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
For the record, I pocket carried my Keltec PF9 for 1.5 years without cleaning or shooting it. I did blow out a dust bunny, but that was the extent of any cleaning. I took said piece to the range after the 1.5 years of carry and ran 20 flawless rounds through it.
