carry permit application question

Straightshooter · Oct 7, 2014

According to MSP guidelines, the course of fire should have been at 3,5,7 & 15 yards. Point as are given only for hits in the black, not where they hit. Shots are also to be timed. Take note that none of these requirements were in the final version of SB281 or are written into COMAR. Its hard to believe that with all the effort that was expended in Annapolis to keep this stiff out of the requirements, this directive has been in effect for over a year and nobody in the firearms community seems to have any problems with MSP adding elements at their whim.

HeatSeeker · Oct 7, 2014

I did not shoot as close as 3-5 yards for the qualification, but did as part of the course. For the test the target was at 7 yards and if I remember correctly my last 5 shots were at 15 yards and timed. The points were based on shot placement. A center mass shot was worth more points than an arm shot, but there was still points awarded for all shots in the black. As my instructor said, this is to be looked at as an attempt to repel or stop an attacker, so even a shot to the shoulder or arm can be looked at as being successful at doing so. I believe and arm shot was worth 3 points??

Jackson923 · Oct 7, 2014

I had to submit 5 receipts and the amount of each was not scrutinized, once that hoop was jumped I then was asked to submit a copy of my LLC information and also my Federal Employer ID number. 5 Days later envelope from MSP in the mail.

pittsaero · Oct 7, 2014

That's really quick. They cashed my check for a renewal on 6/23 & I just got my new permit in the mail last week.

Straightshooter · Oct 7, 2014

HeatSeeker said:
I did not shoot as close as 3-5 yards for the qualification, but did as part of the course. For the test the target was at 7 yards and if I remember correctly my last 5 shots were at 15 yards and timed. The points were based on shot placement. A center mass shot was worth more points than an arm shot, but there was still points awarded for all shots in the black. As my instructor said, this is to be looked at as an attempt to repel or stop an attacker, so even a shot to the shoulder or arm can be looked at as being successful at doing so. I believe and arm shot was worth 3 points??

Well, your instructor would be WRONG! If you want to qualify to stop an attacker, take a course like the PPITH, not a state mandated course for a wear and carry permit. When individual instructors start putting their own little spin on this, then continuity disappears and extra hurdles get added.

This course has nothing what so ever to do with marksmanship or self defense. It is simply an effort by the state to place hurdles in the path of as many citizens as possible in their quest to exercise their 2A rights.

Here is the directive that was put out by the MSP. Even a moron can figure out that after they locked the number of shots at 25, there is no longer any need for a percentage or a point score. At that point it becomes a "Pass/Fail" dependent on hitting the black at least 18 times.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5nrJ9x-BphXN3ltM0hVRDh6V1NHczQyRlgyZ3Z1OUw1OWZR/edit?pli=1

HeatSeeker · Oct 8, 2014

Straightshooter said:
Well, your instructor would be WRONG! If you want to qualify to stop an attacker, take a course like the PPITH, not a state mandated course for a wear and carry permit. When individual instructors start putting their own little spin on this, then continuity disappears and extra hurdles get added.

This course has nothing what so ever to do with marksmanship or self defense. It is simply an effort by the state to place hurdles in the path of as many citizens as possible in their quest to exercise their 2A rights.

Here is the directive that was put out by the MSP. Even a moron can figure out that after they locked the number of shots at 25, there is no longer any need for a percentage or a point score. At that point it becomes a "Pass/Fail" dependent on hitting the black at least 18 times.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5nrJ9x-BphXN3ltM0hVRDh6V1NHczQyRlgyZ3Z1OUw1OWZR/edit?pli=1

I think his credentials speak for themselves. After all he is the one that is certified to teach the course and sign the certificate that goes along with the application. Do you have these credentials, because you seem to do nothing but refute everything that is being said about the course and the shooting qualification. I am not making this stuff up. I took the course and this is how it went.

I was not interested in taking a course like PPITH to qualify to stop an attacker. I was taking a course that is required to apply for renewal of my carry permit. This course is not supposed to have anything to do with marksmanship or self defense. It was simply about displaying competancy when handling and shooting your firearm. Not sure what you keep arguing about. The pass/fail was based on points awarded for shot placement. You can not pass by simply hitting black with 18 shots. You would not accumulate enough points to get a 70% + and that is what is needed to PASS! If I had hit the silhouette in the arm 18 times, which is in the black, I would have accumulated approx. 54 points out of a possible 125 or a 43% and would have failed miserably.

I do agree with you that it could be a requirement introduced to disuade people from applying, but also think it is not a bad idea for people that intend to carry a gun to demonstrate that they know how to safely handle and shoot the gun.

CAS_Shooter · Oct 8, 2014

Here is my view on shooting requirement to carry. First you have to establish tha fact that a ccw carrier will have the tiniest, remote likelihood of ever having to draw and fire. Relative to many other risks, need to draw and fire is very low. Likely to never happen with the vast majority of ccw permit holders. It is just fact. So, in tha ultra rare situation that you would need to draw AND fire you will be facing either great bodily harm or death. In that one instance in that very rare situation to have been denied a means of hope for survival beacause you didnt score high enough on a state test is a terrible injustice. Even if you scored well enough to pass, in that ultra rare, likely never chance that you have to draw and fire, the real life scenario will look nothing like that experience you had when you put the state mandated minimum rounds on paper.

Straightshooter · Oct 8, 2014

HeatSeeker said:
I think his credentials speak for themselves. After all he is the one that is certified to teach the course and sign the certificate that goes along with the application. Do you have these credentials, because you seem to do nothing but refute everything that is being said about the course and the shooting qualification. I am not making this stuff up. I took the course and this is how it went.

I was not interested in taking a course like PPITH to qualify to stop an attacker. I was taking a course that is required to apply for renewal of my carry permit. This course is not supposed to have anything to do with marksmanship or self defense. It was simply about displaying competancy when handling and shooting your firearm. Not sure what you keep arguing about. The pass/fail was based on points awarded for shot placement. You can not pass by simply hitting black with 18 shots. You would not accumulate enough points to get a 70% + and that is what is needed to PASS! If I had hit the silhouette in the arm 18 times, which is in the black, I would have accumulated approx. 54 points out of a possible 125 or a 43% and would have failed miserably.

I do agree with you that it could be a requirement introduced to disuade people from applying, but also think it is not a bad idea for people that intend to carry a gun to demonstrate that they know how to safely handle and shoot the gun.

Yes, he has the credentials, just as that other instructor in another state did when he signed off on CCW classes that never took place. He now faces perjury charges.
Your instructor also signed off under a warning of perjury that you completed the course as set out in the guidelines. By your own admission he did not follow those guidelines and as such your post on this forum could place him in the cross hairs of the MSP.
Under the LAW, had you hit the target in the arm 18 times you would have passed.

mcbruzdzinski · Oct 8, 2014

Straightshooter said:
Where did you get this information? COMAR requires at least 25 shots at no more than 15 yards, with a minimum passing score of 70 %.

It comes directly from the MD State Police.

MD Qualified Handgun Instructors recieved a copy just prior to October 2013.

The COF for personal carry is 25 shots. It is described as the Basic Practical Handgun Course (BPHC).

As someone already stated, if you cannot pass the COF with the minimum score, perhaps you should not be a pistol shooter.

Straightshooter · Oct 8, 2014

As I've stated previously, I have no problem with following the COF as prescribed in COMAR. What I do have a problem with is MSP setting guidelines that go beyond that.

HeatSeeker · Oct 8, 2014

Well since I was there and he was there I don't think we will worry too much about him signing off on a class that did not take place. Not sure why that was even brought into the discussion.

You keep going on about instructors not following the guidelines. I believe he did follow the guidelines, but also went a bit further to make sure that I was proficient in using my firearm. This is something that I see many instructors say they do in any class they teach. Sorry, but I don't think you will find anyone at MSP that would have a problem with this.

Since it is MSP that decides if you can have a W&C permit you might just have to get over your problems with their guidelines.

daggo66 · Oct 8, 2014

Right now all of this is the least of our problems. I am currently in waiting limbo and approaching 60 days of the estimated 90. Everything they needed to do was done weeks ago. It think the wait is to see if I get whacked while I'm waiting, thus eliminating the need for one more CCW on the street.

Straightshooter · Oct 8, 2014

HeatSeeker said:
Well since I was there and he was there I don't think we will worry too much about him signing off on a class that did not take place. Not sure why that was even brought into the discussion.

You keep going on about instructors not following the guidelines. I believe he did follow the guidelines, but also went a bit further to make sure that I was proficient in using my firearm. This is something that I see many instructors say they do in any class they teach. Sorry, but I don't think you will find anyone at MSP that would have a problem with this.

Since it is MSP that decides if you can have a W&C permit you might just have to get over your problems with their guidelines.

Your last paragraph says it all. You seem to be OK with MSP making these decisions and no problem whatsoever with individual instructors adding even more stringent requirements in order to exercise your 2A rights. Maybe I've lost focus on what our 2A fight is all about. Have a great day comrad.

Point 357 · Oct 8, 2014

CAS_Shooter said:
Here is my view on shooting requirement to carry. First you have to establish tha fact that a ccw carrier will have the tiniest, remote likelihood of ever having to draw and fire. Relative to many other risks, need to draw and fire is very low. Likely to never happen with the vast majority of ccw permit holders. It is just fact. So, in tha ultra rare situation that you would need to draw AND fire you will be facing either great bodily harm or death. In that one instance in that very rare situation to have been denied a means of hope for survival beacause you didnt score high enough on a state test is a terrible injustice. Even if you scored well enough to pass, in that ultra rare, likely never chance that you have to draw and fire, the real life scenario will look nothing like that experience you had when you put the state mandated minimum rounds on paper.

I love the way you put this. I've never felt threatened by a piece of paper that's 7 yards away. Ever.

HeatSeeker · Oct 9, 2014

Straightshooter said:
Your last paragraph says it all. You seem to be OK with MSP making these decisions and no problem whatsoever with individual instructors adding even more stringent requirements in order to exercise your 2A rights. Maybe I've lost focus on what our 2A fight is all about. Have a great day comrad.

Didn't say I was OK with it, just willing to abide by it. We can fight the fight and hopefully succeed, but right now it is what it is and we don't have much choice but to follow the rules if we want what they got.

I understand that you hate the man having the power to decide if you can have a W&C permit. We all do, I get it, but I want my permit renewed so I did what the instructor said to do to get the piece of paper. How about you register for the class and tell your instructor how it is going to go, what you are going to shoot, and how it is going to be scored. Let us know how that goes for you.

Straightshooter · Oct 9, 2014

My arguement is not personal with you or anyone else that has to take the course. As stated clearly, its with the MSP making law and our community for over a year now has been silent, obedient subjects on the matter.
To say that there is nothing we can do is completely false. Have you contacted your representatives in the House and Senate to lodge a complaint? Of course you haven't just like everyone else that has taken the course in the last year. Did you ask your instructor to show you where he got the idea of scoring points and timing shots ? Of course you didn't. You don't need to "tell your instructor how its going to go" but you sure as hell could ask why things are being done. I'm a grown man and am not afraid to ask questions of anyone. It makes me wonder how many here have actually read the law or are we now happy with taking the word of others as to what it requires. I do not have to take the class, being one of the fortunate ones that are exempt, but my wife did and yes I questioned them about why and followed that with a complaint to my representatives.

daggo66 · Oct 9, 2014

What was the response from the instructor?

HeatSeeker · Oct 9, 2014

Straightshooter said:
My arguement is not personal with you or anyone else that has to take the course. As stated clearly, its with the MSP making law and our community for over a year now has been silent, obedient subjects on the matter.
To say that there is nothing we can do is completely false. Have you contacted your representatives in the House and Senate to lodge a complaint? Of course you haven't just like everyone else that has taken the course in the last year. Did you ask your instructor to show you where he got the idea of scoring points and timing shots ? Of course you didn't. You don't need to "tell your instructor how its going to go" but you sure as hell could ask why things are being done. I'm a grown man and am not afraid to ask questions of anyone. It makes me wonder how many here have actually read the law or are we now happy with taking the word of others as to what it requires. I do not have to take the class, being one of the fortunate ones that are exempt, but my wife did and yes I questioned them about why and followed that with a complaint to my representatives.

I did not ask because I had no problem with anything I was asked to do in the class. In fact it was enjoyable and I liked getting scored. I was not looking to start any hostiltiy with the instructor in a shooting class. Why would any one want to do that?

What I meant by we cannot do anything, is right now, if you go to take the course, today, you will need to do what the instructor asks of you or most likely you will not get the documents you need to apply. I did not feel my instructor was doing anything wrong or out of the ordinary so I had no reason to question him or the curriculum.

Straightshooter · Oct 9, 2014

HeatSeeker said:
I did not ask because I had no problem with anything I was asked to do in the class. In fact it was enjoyable and I liked getting scored. I was not looking to start any hostiltiy with the instructor in a shooting class. Why would any one want to do that?

What I meant by we cannot do anything, is right now, if you go to take the course, today, you will need to do what the instructor asks of you or most likely you will not get the documents you need to apply. I did not feel my instructor was doing anything wrong or out of the ordinary so I had no reason to question him or the curriculum.

So, once again, if you are happy to comply with whatever the instructor or the MSP asks you to do during the live fire evaluation, then it appears that whole bunch of us wasted our time traveling to Annapolis in the 2013 session. If you had no idea that he was doing something out of the ordinary then I have to assume that you haven't even read the final version of SB281 or it's entry into COMAR.
Let's be clear, nobody mentioned being "hostile" toward anyone, but if we are just going to roll over and take whatever is thrown at us, then I surely won't waste any more trips next year. Sure your class was enjoyable, nobody accused you of being tortured, but the guidelines set up by MSP fall outside of what is allowed under the bill that was passed. So, the question is, now that you have your documentation and no longer need to be afraid of reprisal from your instructor, what are you going to do about the discrepancy? Never mind, I'm sure I know the answer.

daggo66 · Oct 9, 2014

Straightshooter said:
So, once again, if you are happy to comply with whatever the instructor or the MSP asks you to do during the live fire evaluation, then it appears that whole bunch of us wasted our time traveling to Annapolis in the 2013 session. If you had no idea that he was doing something out of the ordinary then I have to assume that you haven't even read the final version of SB281 or it's entry into COMAR.
Let's be clear, nobody mentioned being "hostile" toward anyone, but if we are just going to roll over and take whatever is thrown at us, then I surely won't waste any more trips next year. Sure your class was enjoyable, nobody accused you of being tortured, but the guidelines set up by MSP fall outside of what is allowed under the bill that was passed. So, the question is, now that you have your documentation and no longer need to be afraid of reprisal from your instructor, what are you going to do about the discrepancy? Never mind, I'm sure I know the answer.

I understand your point, however this is not the only instance. Everyone knows that the law was specifically crafted so that live fire was not required for the HQL. MSP added a live fire (1 round) component during the Comar hearing. There was testimony and nothing was done about it.

What do you think can be done about the wear and carry requirements? We are screwed at every turn.

carry permit application question

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