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brownspotz · Mar 11, 2015

to win the G&S removal all we needed was just one person from the LGBT community to speak out about being discriminated against and it would have been struck down as no politician would want that on their record.

CypherPunk · Mar 11, 2015

I'm thinking about answering the question this way;

If every responsible Maryland citizen was to be issued a handgun permit, young black men would be in no more danger of being shot than they are in now of being knifed or struck by a car for "looking guilty".

Judging based on stereotypes is wrong, no matter who does it.

jkeys · Mar 11, 2015

Ask him how many times the average person puts their hands in their pockets around police officers every day without getting shot.

smokering · Mar 11, 2015

Easy; ban pockets...problem solved.

Seriously, you act the same if you don't have a firearm around a suspicious person, you distance yourself while keeping an eye on them. Whether it is crossing the street, or going into a store or acting slightly weird. Whatever works, explain people that want the responsibility of CCW do not want to shoot anyone. We know what the legal, mental and moral costs are even when there are no other options.

CypherPunk · Mar 11, 2015

FYI- I'm trying to win a ally and a vote to repeal "G&S", not win an argument.

I think this is also a useful exercise for us all to understand.

If someone feels a certain way, regardless of how ridiculous it may be, the reality is they still feel that way and that doesn't make it any less real to them.

frogman68 · Mar 11, 2015

my answer

I don't have the answer as to why he is putting his hand in his pocket. The threat if it is one is not against me or my family so I find proper cover and if necessary call 911. This young person may be a police officer working undercover and I wouldn't want to endanger a investigation or the officer.

danb · Mar 11, 2015

Real people do not have the benefit of union & city attorneys, they do not have the benefit of laws that allow them to collect a paycheck while the matter is sorted out. Media sensationalism aside, I really don't know anyone who wants the hassle unless absolutely necessary.

Except in the movies or hypersensationalized media, real people I doubt react like that. Police are trained to give a report after a shooting.

"He was putting his hands in his pocket" is unlikely to fly in real life, especially in Maryland where you have a duty to retreat outside your home.

Who was this delegate anyway?

pwoolford · Mar 11, 2015

CypherPunk said:
FYI- I'm trying to win a ally and a vote to repeal "G&S", not win an argument.

I think this is also a useful exercise for us all to understand.

If someone feels a certain way, regardless of how ridiculous it may be, the reality is they still feel that way and that doesn't make it any less real to them.

Just so I'm clear on the question....

Is it you have a permit and are carrying and see someone put their hands in their pockets?

Or you see someone with a permit and a gun reaching into their pocket and you assume they might be going for their legal gun?

In both cases my answer would be my gun would be concealed so the other person wouldn't know if I was armed or not. Also, people reach into their pockets all day every day and nobody is getting shot over it. I would react just like I would if I wasn't armed. Now if the person is acting nutty and threatening to kill people I'd pay more attention to that.

alucard0822 · Mar 11, 2015

print this out
hold it in front of your face

Although printing out MD's use of force statutes, a few caselaw examples of what constitutes a deadly and imminent threat, and decicively showing that scenario would result in prosecution, and just flat doesn't happen might also help.

dblas · Mar 11, 2015

Bob A said:
OK, it's possible that the original question could have been more clearly phrased, and more clearly posed. I believe my interpretation responded to the situation as I understood it.

If the OP or you would care to re-state the premise, I'd be pleased to re-respond.

If you would care to clarify exactly why you see fit to label me an uncaring ass, perhaps I could explain more clearly why I feel that characterisation to be unfair.

That comment wasn't directed at you personally or Strightshooter, but a general comment in regards to trying to have a conversation with someone and trying to change their mind without labeling them.

I will get with the OP and see if we can get the original question rephrased.

MDFF2008 · Mar 11, 2015

Maryland requires training for the CCW. I'd argue that these situations are covered in training, and then I'd point to some statistics about CCW holders from states with SYG laws, which are more permissive than MD.

CypherPunk · Mar 11, 2015

The inquiry is, "how do you relieve an individual's fear that if Maryland goes shall issue, he could be unjustifiably shot by a permit holder just for appearing suspicious, inadvertently following the permit holder in public and doing something innocuous, like reaching into his pockets to fetch his keys.

The goal is to allay his fears, as unfounded as they may be. How do you convince a person?

Remember, any solution must acknowledge AND address his perceptions, not dismiss them.

rseymorejr · Mar 11, 2015

CypherPunk said:
The inquiry is, "how do you relieve an individual's fear that if Maryland goes shall issue, he could be unjustifiably shot by a permit holder just for appearing suspicious, inadvertently following the permit holder in public and doing something innocuous, like reaching into his pockets to fetch his keys.

The goal is to allay his fears, as unfounded as they may be. How do you convince a person?

Remember, any solution must acknowledge AND address his perceptions, not dismiss them.

The short answer is that it just does not happen in other states where concealed carry is common. People carry guns to protect themselves and their families NOT to become a vigilante.
He is concerned because he has lived in Maryland where, for a long time, only cops and criminals carry guns for the most part. He needs to realize that the vast majority of people do the right thing because it's the right thing.

CypherPunk · Mar 11, 2015

I don't think you can relieve a child of their fear of clowns by telling them that clown violence just doesn't happen.

There has to be a better solution that allows the child to arrive at his own understanding.

rseymorejr · Mar 11, 2015

He probably doesn't know any gun owners. Maybe take him out to the AGC on a nice weekend day and he can see hundreds of law abiding gun owners. Maybe he could meet a few and take a couple of shots with them. Once he sees that we are all individuals, husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, etc. maybe he won't have the irrational fear.

lx1x · Mar 11, 2015

CypherPunk said:
I don't think you can relieve a child of their fear of clowns by telling them that clown violence just doesn't happen.

There has to be a better solution that allows the child to arrive at his own understanding.

Education. You educate the child what is a clown.. What they do.. What they are vs they are not (portrayed in movies)

My two cents.

Mr H · Mar 11, 2015

I like the suggestion made in the PbP thread, that these Delegates should be offered an opportunity to attend some degree of training... even if it's just an overview of a real course... and meet gun owners.

Armadillofz1 · Mar 11, 2015

CypherPunk said:
A politician says he believes Maryland's G&S scheme is racial, and he's open to reversing it.

But he has one concern...

A person with a firearm is walking in front of him, and he is reaching in his pocket.

What, besides the obvious, prevents the permit holder, from falsely interpreting the innocent man as a threat, because of his race, and shooting him.

I don't agree with the premiss, but it is his concern and therefore valid and needs to be overcome.

How would you suggest I respond to his concerns.

TIA

If this were the case the streets here in arizona would be running red with blood. The truth is that people that carry are usually extremely aware, both of their surroundings, and of the consequences of their actions. I'd wager that a CCW holder is much more law abiding than that same person without the CCW.

Blaster229 · Mar 11, 2015

I would say his fear is the fear of many who would like to carry in case one day their suspicion is true and that someone, someday could be an actual threat.

danb · Mar 11, 2015

I cannot help thinking though that the question was a trap. If it's the part I am thinking of it was followed by some commentary about Reagan supporting gun control and disarming Black Panthers.

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