Gun search question at traffic stop based on NRA sticker

N3YMY · Jul 19, 2014

SRD said:
I wonder if the question of guns came up because msp ran the tag and not due to the sticker.

No doubt.

When I took the family to Niagara Falls, ONT, CA; we drove. At the crossing, I was asked specifically if I owned a hand gun. I was some what surprised by the question (never asked in prior crossings), but I played along. And answered affirmative.

Then I was asked if I had it with me; I didn't and said as much.

We were detained. Told to pull over for an "inspection". A group of officers came over and we were instructed to turn the vehicle off and leave the key in the ignition.

We were forced to sit and watch as our entire vehicle was unloaded, torn a part and left on the ground, including the contents of the bed.

We were then informed we had to go "inside" and explain ourselves.

(Basically, why are you here, where are you going and when will you leave)

We could NOT clean up the mess on the ground first or secure the ignition key, we had to into the building and just leave our belongings on the ground.

After being inside in line for an hour, we were asked a few questions and permitted to go outside and "claim" our belongings from the ground around our truck.

Total delay: 2.5 hours.

I would say it sucked, but the worst of it was my credit card was compromised on the same trip and I ended up with 4 new cards in the space of 3 months.

Basically, I have no plans to go back to Canada again :envy:

Norton · Jul 19, 2014

Those that are trying their hardest to derail this conversation with their incindiary remarks are not going to be pleased with the outcome.

Those posts have since been removed.

MDFF2008 · Jul 19, 2014

miben said:
So then why ask?

How many stupid criminals do you see on tv give consent and then they find stuff in their car?

Kinetic · Jul 19, 2014

Note to self: Check the lights on all of my cars.

Mooseman · Jul 19, 2014

Kinetic said:
Note to self: Check the lights on all of my cars.

A good pre trip inspection is never a bad idea. :thumbsup:

PO2012 · Jul 20, 2014

Darkseed said:
My question is - is this 'fishing' legal - i got the sense my reply to the question could have turned this into a full blown search, detainment etc. I was merely driving home from work with a tail light out and an nra sticker on my car, dressed in business attire...

Look, here's the problem. A lot of Police these days view their job as a game - literally. That's actually how they refer to our profession and to be perfectly frank it pisses me off. Rare is the day where I'm not forced to listen to this particular breed of loud mouth ******* brag about all the one gelcap and driving while suspended lock ups he's made. Meanwhile burglary, robbery and larceny run rampant and abandoned stolen vehicles sit on the street waiting to be reclaimed for days or weeks on end. To them the job isn't about justice and it isn't about saving lives and protecting property, rather it's about scoring points. The way that one scores "points" in the "game" is by writing citations/repair orders and making arrests, no matter how petty or unnecessary they may be. These are the same humps who arrest five people drinking and having a loud conversation outside of their house for disorderly conduct where a warning would have sufficed. And oh, by the way, it's Friday night and we're now short yet another car. Thanks a lot. But hey, that's five arrests whereas locking up that burglar climbing out of the back window of the house would only be one arrest. Priorities, ladies and gentlemen, priorities.

Policing isn't what it used to be. Drugs and guns are the name of the game now. That's what all these new folks are taught, regardless of agency. Gone are the days when new Cops aspired to investigate robberies or become a check and fraud detective. Seriously, ask new Cops where they want to go in their careers - almost without exception you get the following answers: 1) SWAT 2) Canine 3) Whatever acronym their particular agency's drug unit is known by. The trouble is this: you cannot arrest your way to a drug free Maryland. I don't care how many misdemeanor CDS lock ups you make the problem isn't going away. Burglary, on the other hand, is a problem that can be solved by arrest. Usually when you have a rash of burglaries it's one or a handful of people committing the crimes. Lock him (or them) up and the problem goes away. Of course, burglary investigations and stakeouts are time and labor intensive meaning that one doesn't receive the instant gratification that one gets when one finds a crack pipe in the center console on a traffic stop, hence why many new Officers choose the path of least resistance. And as for the argument that drug abuse leads to crimes against property, I'll say this: many burglars and thieves are drug users but most drug users aren't thieves and burglars. If they were it would be like a plague of locusts had descended on the State of Maryland. Junkies who steal are a special breed. They'd be out stealing even if they weren't addicts.

Personally, I have nothing against traffic enforcement. It's a necessary part of the job. If your brake lights don't work, at some point you're going to get rear-ended hence why I stop folks for defective equipment. At the same time I don't go on a fishing expedition for two reasons. First, because it's a waste of time. Unless I see something that gives me reason to believe that the driver or passenger(s) are criminals I'm completing my stop and moving on. Every moment wasted on a traffic stop waiting for a gun dog because someone had an NRA bumper sticker is a moment I could've spent talking to the residents and business owners on my post and paying a call on my known predators. Second, by questioning every motorist you stop as though they were a potential felon you help but breed an unimaginable level of hatred of the Police. A lot of cops can't turn off their 'cop vision' and see things through the eyes of a private citizen. Being asked to consent to a search of your car for guns and drugs when you're on your way back from work based on a burnt out stop light both frightens and angers people. These, by the way, are the same people that we need to provide us with information to be effective at doing our jobs. Part of the reason that canine sweeps, checkpoints and a high volume of car stops are considered necessary is because we've pissed such a large percentage of the public off that they have withdrawn their voluntary cooperation. You have to be able to alternate between good Cop and bad Cop at the drop of a hat based on your audience. Sadly, too many can't.

Bottom line, they're doing things this way because it's how they were taught to conduct themselves and/or it's the culture of the agency. If you don't like it request an audience with the local barrack commander, district commander, precinct commander or sheriff and express your concerns. Better yet, bring your friends when you come. Be polite, be civil, wearing business attire, have your argument agreed on before hand and stay on point. If you don't want to be policed in a certain way then say so. A lot of Cops believe that what you described is "doing God's work" and they've never received any feedback to the contrary. It's up to you to provide that feedback. If you want more Cops working stake outs and fewer Cops running radar or lidar then make your voice heard. If you like the way that you're being policed then feel free to remain silent. The choice is yours.

rico903 · Jul 20, 2014

highwayheat said:
Looks do not matter to me. I have arrested peeple from all walks of life for criminal acts. Some of my best felony arrest/seizures have come from individuals dressed in very nice, expensive clothes. Basing my enforcement on the way people look would just be a fishing expedition which is a total waste of my time. If I have a legal reason to stop someone then I may start digging deeper based on their body language and reactions to my presence. We get paid to ask questions and conduct investigations. All traffic stops are an investigation by nature and it is not illegal to ask questions. Most traffic stops lead to someone being issued the appropriate paperwork and cut loose in a minimal amount of time. There are however, traffic stops that lead to further questioning and possibly an arrest depending on what is discovered or learned through out the course of the traffic stop.
I personally ask everyone if the there are any weapons in the vehicle. I ask this for the safety of the individual(s) I have stopped and my personal safety as well. I posted on here before how earlier in my career that an individual with a MD CCW had a loaded pistol in the glove box. When he went to retrieve his registration it fell out on the passenger seat and the situation became tense for a few moments. Once I determined he had a CCW he was released and sent on his way with a warning for the traffic violation. I explained to him that a little heads up would have been nice and he would have not found himself in cuffs for a few minutes. He apologized and we shook hands. I personally can not speak for all LEO's in this state, but I prefer someone tell me that they have a weapon in the car. If the person is a legit, law abiding citizen then I cut them loose with the appropriate paperwork and move on to the next stop. Courtesy is a two way street and goes along way from both sides of the traffic stop. On the same note I have had criminals that should never be in possession of a firearm tell me they are carrying. Once I find out through "questions" that they are a prohibited person then they get a free ride to the pokey.
If I stop a vehicle that happens to have some form of a 2A sticker on it then I usually end in a casual convestaion with the driver/passengers about firearms and how the firearm laws is this state suck. Unfortuanately, there are a few bad apples in law enforement that will do anything for a stat/arrest, even if they do not necessarily agree with the law that they are enforcing. I will stick with my best partner, which is common sense discretion.

Just for clarification, what do you consider a weapon? Is a knife(my EDC) or hatchet in the car a weapon by your definition? A tire iron or a long screw driver? Figure it's a legitimate question as I don't have a trunk to stow this stuff.

rico903 · Jul 20, 2014

TheBert said:
Nobody can seem to tell what a dog does when it hits on drugs. Is it that the dog sat down? The dog sniffed his ass? The dog licked his balls? The dog starred at the ground for 3 seconds? It appears that it is whatever the cop says it is which is non-specific and completely open to interpretation.

Not to mention easily induced on command by the K-9 officer, legit or not.

Joshvictus · Jul 20, 2014

rico903 said:
Just for clarification, what do you consider a weapon? Is a knife(my EDC) or hatchet in the car a weapon by your definition? A tire iron or a long screw driver? Figure it's a legitimate question as I don't have a trunk to stow this stuff.

This^^

I'm always wearing a folding blade of some kind (within MD law specs) and have wondered if I didn't have any firearms present and answered the question "no" if the knife could then get me into trouble.

Corporal Doug · Jul 20, 2014

fabsroman said:
Blackstar,

Do we have to answer the questions you ask of us, or can we refuse to answer any questions that could be incriminating? What could you do if we refused to answer?

Even thought about countering the "How much have you had to drink" and "Have any firearms in the car" with "Officer, what was the probably cause for pulling me over?", handing the officer my ID and registration, and leaving it at that.

Edit to add: I understand that you have a job to do, but I just have a problem with getting pulled over for a work repair order, getting treated like a criminal, and getting an anal probe. It would be kind of like me assuming you are a bad cop as soon as I see you. I also know you have a tough job, but some of us have a tough time dealing with all the rules, regulations, and infringements on our freedom in this state.

I have to go use the toilet. Let me check the regs on flushing.

Until you can tell us who the real criminals are and what they look like then we will continue to treat every stop the same way. Society can't say they don't want police to profile people AND say that they don't want to be treated like a criminal during a traffic stop because the officer is asking questions. No one has found middle ground for that yet and honestly treating everyone the same is the most fair way, is it not?

Honestly though, profiling doesn't work. But using criminal indicators and being consistent does work, even if it means asking a law abiding citizen the same generic questions that you should only apply to "criminals". I have been asked numerous times by "soccer mom" why I am stopping her and shouldn't I be out catching REAL criminals, or "do I look like a criminal to you"? My reply is always the same: "ma'am, what exactly does a criminal look like?"

As far as the "how much have you had to drink?" Question, I ask it sometimes if I can't smell the alcoholic beverage on their breath do I can get them to talk and maybe smell the odor at that point, or if they admit to the odor I already smell. If they haven't been drinking then oh well, I stop pushing the issue.

ironpony · Jul 20, 2014

Has this type of thread been posted before? I saw one post against people asking if asking is ok. Wow.
It's nice out and I'm headed to the range, I have 4 firearms onboard, pull me over you are welcome to come along!

Corporal Doug · Jul 20, 2014

PO2012 said:
Look, here's the problem. A lot of Police these days view their job as a game - literally. That's actually how they refer to our profession and to be perfectly frank it pisses me off. Rare is the day where I'm not forced to listen to this particular breed of loud mouth ******* brag about all the one gelcap and driving while suspended lock ups he's made. Meanwhile burglary, robbery and larceny run rampant and abandoned stolen vehicles sit on the street waiting to be reclaimed for days or weeks on end. To them the job isn't about justice and it isn't about saving lives and protecting property, rather it's about scoring points. The way that one scores "points" in the "game" is by writing citations/repair orders and making arrests, no matter how petty or unnecessary they may be. These are the same humps who arrest five people drinking and having a loud conversation outside of their house for disorderly conduct where a warning would have sufficed. And oh, by the way, it's Friday night and we're now short yet another car. Thanks a lot. But hey, that's five arrests whereas locking up that burglar climbing out of the back window of the house would only be one arrest. Priorities, ladies and gentlemen, priorities.

Policing isn't what it used to be. Drugs and guns are the name of the game now. That's what all these new folks are taught, regardless of agency. Gone are the days when new Cops aspired to investigate robberies or become a check and fraud detective. Seriously, ask new Cops where they want to go in their careers - almost without exception you get the following answers: 1) SWAT 2) Canine 3) Whatever acronym their particular agency's drug unit is known by. The trouble is this: you cannot arrest your way to a drug free Maryland. I don't care how many misdemeanor CDS lock ups you make the problem isn't going away. Burglary, on the other hand, is a problem that can be solved by arrest. Usually when you have a rash of burglaries it's one or a handful of people committing the crimes. Lock him (or them) up and the problem goes away. Of course, burglary investigations and stakeouts are time and labor intensive meaning that one doesn't receive the instant gratification that one gets when one finds a crack pipe in the center console on a traffic stop, hence why many new Officers choose the path of least resistance. And as for the argument that drug abuse leads to crimes against property, I'll say this: many burglars and thieves are drug users but most drug users aren't thieves and burglars. If they were it would be like a plague of locusts had descended on the State of Maryland. Junkies who steal are a special breed. They'd be out stealing even if they weren't addicts.

Personally, I have nothing against traffic enforcement. It's a necessary part of the job. If your brake lights don't work, at some point you're going to get rear-ended hence why I stop folks for defective equipment. At the same time I don't go on a fishing expedition for two reasons. First, because it's a waste of time. Unless I see something that gives me reason to believe that the driver or passenger(s) are criminals I'm completing my stop and moving on. Every moment wasted on a traffic stop waiting for a gun dog because someone had an NRA bumper sticker is a moment I could've spent talking to the residents and business owners on my post and paying a call on my known predators. Second, by questioning every motorist you stop as though they were a potential felon you help but breed an unimaginable level of hatred of the Police. A lot of cops can't turn off their 'cop vision' and see things through the eyes of a private citizen. Being asked to consent to a search of your car for guns and drugs when you're on your way back from work based on a burnt out stop light both frightens and angers people. These, by the way, are the same people that we need to provide us with information to be effective at doing our jobs. Part of the reason that canine sweeps, checkpoints and a high volume of car stops are considered necessary is because we've pissed such a large percentage of the public off that they have withdrawn their voluntary cooperation. You have to be able to alternate between good Cop and bad Cop at the drop of a hat based on your audience. Sadly, too many can't.

Bottom line, they're doing things this way because it's how they were taught to conduct themselves and/or it's the culture of the agency. If you don't like it request an audience with the local barrack commander, district commander, precinct commander or sheriff and express your concerns. Better yet, bring your friends when you come. Be polite, be civil, wearing business attire, have your argument agreed on before hand and stay on point. If you don't want to be policed in a certain way then say so. A lot of Cops believe that what you described is "doing God's work" and they've never received any feedback to the contrary. It's up to you to provide that feedback. If you want more Cops working stake outs and fewer Cops running radar or lidar then make your voice heard. If you like the way that you're being policed then feel free to remain silent. The choice is yours.

I agree with a lot of what you say to a degree. I am one of the new guys that you talk about, however I don't see the job as the "game" like you say. I try to make challenges for myself to keep it interesting and such, but far from a game.

A lot of what you say about today's policing is part of the politics game. You know that. Everything is statistic driven and the politicians want to see numbers for everything so they can base a department's self worth or see what types of enforcement needs to be increased. I'd it correct to do it this way? I don't know the answer to that but the only way I agree with using statistics is because it can provide incite as to what we need to make ourselves better. However, we all know that these statistics can be biased and our manipulated to for the politicians agendas.

Policing has changed no doubt, but so has society and just like every other organism policing has attempted to adapt. It sucks to say but it is becoming increasingly difficult to be everyone's friend because of all the negative attention we get on the news, which is the small sample of biased reporting. Policing has become much more difficult because of second guessing based on misinformed populace watching you on YouTube, and always trying to make the right decision because the heat is on. Only bad cops should fear cameras but as we are seeing, good cops are being during up to dry even when they did what they were trained to do. But because use of force never "looks" good, misinformed people throw a for of rage when they see it in action and cry foul, which pushes the political types to change policies and hang good cops because of political pressure instead of standing behind the person they trained. All of this is causing the good cops to second guess themselves and getting killed because they don't want to act. This is also pushing away good candidates because no-one wants to do the job except sub-par applicants.

It's a revolving cycle as you can see and no one has the answer to fix it, except some extremists think it's ok to just "kill all cops" or "FTP".

Minuteman · Jul 20, 2014

Darkseed said:
I was pulled over this evening as my drivers tail light was out (which is ok - had no idea). BUT after asking for license and registration i was asked how many guns were in my vehicle. I replied none. By this point there were 4 patrol cars behind my vehicle. I was asked if i would consent to a search, which i did not consent to. Cop went and ran my details, issued a repair order, and sent me on my way. My question is - is this 'fishing' legal - i got the sense my reply to the question could have turned this into a full blown search, detainment etc. I was merely driving home from work with a tail light out and an nra sticker on my car, dressed in business attire...

I don't know you, but sounds like you did the right thing. If they wanted to search they would have called a dog to give them probable cause. Lots of reasons four cars showed up, I'm sure had nothing to do with your sticker.

>Since you don't have anything illegal, you don't mind if I search?
>Actually I do mind, we both have better things to do; I assure you there is nothing illegal in this car.

Always note the officers name, time and location of any improper conduct. Do not hesitate to call the officers headquarters and report misconduct. Most officers are great Americans, it is all our responsibility to weed out those very few that are corrupt, before they corrupt other officers or tarnish societies respect and admiration of the profession.

Disclaimer: I'm talking about real misconduct, like asking for bribes, false arrest, placing evidence, inappropriate physical contact, etc.

Minuteman · Jul 20, 2014

Don't judge a book by its cover some say.

I say some books have no cover.

Boondock Saint · Jul 20, 2014

Minuteman said:
Don't judge a book by its cover some say.

I say some books have no cover.

Channeling my best George Carlin impression:

"When I see a guy who decorated his scalp with a soldering iron I say 'There's a happy guy! Thinks highly of himself...'"

EL1227 · Jul 20, 2014

THIS ...

Minuteman said:
>Since you don't have anything illegal, you don't mind if I search?

>Actually I do mind, we both have better things to do; I assure you there is nothing illegal in this car.

The leading question or how it is sometimes formed if you refuse a search, ... "Why not, if you don't have anything to hide ...", both of which attempt to put you on the defensive.

>I don't have anything to hide, but there are proper procedures that should be followed for me to allow a search of my vehicle.

Inigoes · Jul 20, 2014

EL1227 said:
The leading question or how it is sometimes formed if you refuse a search, ... "Why not, if you don't have anything to hide ...", both of which attempt to put you on the defensive.

>I don't have anything to hide, but there are proper procedures that should be followed for me to allow a search of my vehicle.

Why waist all those words, when "no" suffices? Clear, concise, and to the point.

Noone has to explain themselves for legal conduct.

G O B · Jul 20, 2014

NO.

"WHY NOT IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE?"

"BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE A WARRANT".

LoneRanger · Jul 20, 2014

Corporal Doug said:
Until you can tell us who the real criminals are and what they look like then we will continue to treat every stop the same way. Society can't say they don't want police to profile people AND say that they don't want to be treated like a criminal during a traffic stop because the officer is asking questions. No one has found middle ground for that yet and honestly treating everyone the same is the most fair way, is it not?

Honestly though, profiling doesn't work. But using criminal indicators and being consistent does work, even if it means asking a law abiding citizen the same generic questions that you should only apply to "criminals". I have been asked numerous times by "soccer mom" why I am stopping her and shouldn't I be out catching REAL criminals, or "do I look like a criminal to you"? My reply is always the same: "ma'am, what exactly does a criminal look like?"

As far as the "how much have you had to drink?" Question, I ask it sometimes if I can't smell the alcoholic beverage on their breath do I can get them to talk and maybe smell the odor at that point, or if they admit to the odor I already smell. If they haven't been drinking then oh well, I stop pushing the issue.

I think profiling does work and is one of the criminal indicators you refer to. It's unfortunate that society as a whole seems to have issue with it.

The problem with telling who the real criminals are is that there are far too many criminals out there that don't think they are criminals. Just drive around the beltway as you are surrounded by people doing 20+ over the speed limit or have their heads staring at their crotch texting and driving....or drive to through many residental areas like Parkville or Woodlawn and look at the number of cars parked on sidewalks or with the left wheels to the curb...

Real problem is there are far too many people with no respect for the law and not enough folks to enforce it......

strapped · Jul 20, 2014

LoneRanger said:
Real problem is there are far too many people with no respect for the law and not enough folks to enforce it......

And the vocal majority do not support laws being enforced.

Gun search question at traffic stop based on NRA sticker

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