Bad ass!
SKS Type 56 date of manufacture
- Thread starter mgbill
- Start date
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Bad ass!
why2kmax
Jacka$$
I wonder where the break is from when the ghosts end and the /26\ stamp starts. Was it a clean break (150k? 200k?) or just random.
Machodoc
Old Guy
That's really uncertain for a number of reasons.
The simple answer is that the limited (and not always reliable) data on hand is pointing toward 200K, if there's a clean break for a starting point.
The more difficult answer is that we don't know, and there's some really confusing data available. Going with user-supplied information, there are at least 20 reports of serial numbers without letter prefixes, with the /26\ stamp, and below 200K. One of those is as low as 117. (Which could have been the arsenal number of a later "Norinco" rifle ... who knows?)
The problem with owner-reported data is that not everyone really knows what to look for, has typed in their data accurately, is not honest in their reporting, etc. At least one of those 20 reported cases was later found to have been inaccurate due to an honest mistake by the person who sent in the info.
That's why there's talk of a new "census" being proposed in which the reporters will be educated as part of the census, and encouraged to submit photos. That should give more clear data.
Where things will get a bit dicey, and I suspect this might happen, is if you don't find a clean break, and there are "ghost" rifles with higher numbers than the lowest found with the Jianshe arsenal mark.
Machodoc
Old Guy
Brent - "RM" sent me a very thorough breakdown of his logic for re-sequencing these rifles. He's quick to say that these are still just theories, but I'll say that he's certainly put a lot of thought into it.
To be honest, it will take me some time to wrap my head around all of his proposals, and I'd like to independently verify what I can of what he's saying (and he'd like for that to be done), but I'm really impressed with his approach so far. Don't take it to be gospel yet (he's certainly not!), but it's some intriguing stuff. If we can ever find documentary evidence to prove what went on with the production of these early rifles, I don't doubt that at least some of what he's proposing is going to turn out to be right on target.
The process now, is to try to disprove his theories. The vexing thing is that so much of what we are dealing with has to account for an absence of data (such as there not seeming to be any body of info about 1 million series rifles). One of the biggest cautions that historians are trained to embrace is that you shouldn't try to draw any conclusions about an absence of information ... other than that there's an absence of information.
brentb636
Active Member
We need the 80 year old former asst mgr of arsenal /26\ to step up and testify, that would be a big help. 
eddiek2000
Sweet Lemonade!!
If that's all matching that's a really nice score, a 1956 Russian! Make sure you send it back to Royal Tiger since the ATF is cracking down on Russian imports.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=150178
Machodoc
Old Guy
Make sure you send it back to Royal Tiger since the ATF is cracking down on Russian imports.
Or ... NOT! Very nice addition for the money!
eddiek2000
Sweet Lemonade!!
If that's all matching that's a really nice score, a 1956 Russian! Make sure you send it back to Royal Tiger since the ATF is cracking down on Russian imports.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=150178
Sweet! I was thinking that, but didn't want to get too excited. Unfortunately, the wood is most likely not going to be salvageable, but we'll see.
brentb636
Active Member
Looking at the Serial Number database on sksboards, your serial number shows up between 1950 and 1952 on the Tula rifles . Sounds like a good rifle to have, congrats.
Brent
Brent
eddiek2000
Sweet Lemonade!!
Thanks. Still working my way through that thread.
Yingpin
Ultimate Member
I just received my first SKS from Classic today. I paid $20 for all matching but not for cosmetic. I have not taken it apart yet but did managed to give it a good wipe down. Everything is in fact matching but the wood is really rough. I am going to draw the cosmoline out but would love a good video of what to do next to bring back some of the wood. I do not want to strip it but clean it up I guess.
mgbill
Active Member
Yingpin - where's the serial stamped on your stock?
Yingpin
Ultimate Member
Machodoc
Old Guy
Yingpin -
Here's a cousin of your rifle's. I think this is one of mine, but I'm not certain.
If you are thinking about "drawing out" the cosmoline using heat, please don't. Use mineral spirits (charcoal lighter ... same thing) to dilute the cosmoline, then take it off with paper towels. You'll use most of a roll of towels to clean the rifle, but it will be much cleaner.
Here's a cousin of your rifle's. I think this is one of mine, but I'm not certain.
If you are thinking about "drawing out" the cosmoline using heat, please don't. Use mineral spirits (charcoal lighter ... same thing) to dilute the cosmoline, then take it off with paper towels. You'll use most of a roll of towels to clean the rifle, but it will be much cleaner.
Attachments
brentb636
Active Member
That backward "J" is now "maybe" a weird "G" or even an "L" in a sksboard thread. I'm glad my K9103 is clearly defined. Who knows what it might turn into next ? This is FUN, you know !
Brent
This is FUN, you know ! Brent
Brent my biggest gripe with the new study that's being done on the SKSboard is that I already have my "Former Sino-Soviet Chinese Letter Gun" logged in as a 1956 in my C&R bound book.
It's exciting but the theory is only a month old. Sure is convincing from what data has been presented, if you can get past all of the back and forth in the threads. But no one brought up the most important piece of information. The Chinese are excellent at direct copies, and then refine and change items to their liking. Is it possible that the Ghost guns were a gift from the Russians to the Chinese when the tooling was handed over, but the Russians didn't want their arsenal stamp on them? The Russians then taught the Chinese how to build the letter guns, under their direct supervision, which is why they don't have Russian proofs, but different serial numbers. Once the Russians left, the Chinese did exact copies of the Ghost guns with their /26\ stampings, and every year after started ditching the Russian proofs to save time.
Hehe i'm just not ready to alter my C&R bound book date yet, but all of this new data is great to see.
It's exciting but the theory is only a month old. Sure is convincing from what data has been presented, if you can get past all of the back and forth in the threads. But no one brought up the most important piece of information. The Chinese are excellent at direct copies, and then refine and change items to their liking. Is it possible that the Ghost guns were a gift from the Russians to the Chinese when the tooling was handed over, but the Russians didn't want their arsenal stamp on them? The Russians then taught the Chinese how to build the letter guns, under their direct supervision, which is why they don't have Russian proofs, but different serial numbers. Once the Russians left, the Chinese did exact copies of the Ghost guns with their /26\ stampings, and every year after started ditching the Russian proofs to save time.
Hehe i'm just not ready to alter my C&R bound book date yet, but all of this new data is great to see.
brentb636
Active Member
Brent my biggest gripe with the new study that's being done on the SKSboard is that I already have my "Former Sino-Soviet Chinese Letter Gun" logged in as a 1956 in my C&R bound book.
It's exciting but the theory is only a month old. Sure is convincing from what data has been presented, if you can get past all of the back and forth in the threads. But no one brought up the most important piece of information. The Chinese are excellent at direct copies, and then refine and change items to their liking. Is it possible that the Ghost guns were a gift from the Russians to the Chinese when the tooling was handed over, but the Russians didn't want their arsenal stamp on them? The Russians then taught the Chinese how to build the letter guns, under their direct supervision, which is why they don't have Russian proofs, but different serial numbers. Once the Russians left, the Chinese did exact copies of the Ghost guns with their /26\ stampings, and every year after started ditching the Russian proofs to save time.
Hehe i'm just not ready to alter my C&R bound book date yet, but all of this new data is great to see.
The new data collection certainly opens up new avenues of interpretation. Maybe even the ghosts were assembled at the "IZZY" arsenal by Chinese trainees, so they could get their hands on the equipment before it was shipped over. I know there were some "alternate factory" theories , this is just stretching the theories back to Mama Russia .
I love this intrigue ! Brent
Machodoc
Old Guy
Keep in mind that we have NEVER had much in the way of fact about these rifles. With the exception of a very few points, all that's out there online is speculation based upon the best available data. While I find these new theories interesting, and generally based upon some pretty good logic, I don't find any theory truly convincing. As more and more data points are gathered about this group of rifles, assuming that it's accurately reported, we start to be able to get a better picture of what might have been going on, but that doesn't make anything a fact.
Perhaps the worst flaw in some arguments I've seen is where people make assumptions of fact based upon a lack of info. For example, when people say, "We don't have any data on 1-million-series rifles, so here's why ...", that's bad methodology. We don't know how rifles were selected to be sent to Albania, why those particular ones were sent, etc. They could have just decided to upgrade the arms of some given units first, and all their old rifles were shipped off. For all we know, there are storage facilities in China that are stacked to the roof with 1-million-series rifles, but those just happened to be sent to units that were a long way from a convenient seaport, and when the time came to ship arms to Albania, they weren't considered. Just because that leaves a gap in our knowledge, it doesn't give us an obligation to fill that gap with speculation.
Perhaps the worst flaw in some arguments I've seen is where people make assumptions of fact based upon a lack of info. For example, when people say, "We don't have any data on 1-million-series rifles, so here's why ...", that's bad methodology. We don't know how rifles were selected to be sent to Albania, why those particular ones were sent, etc. They could have just decided to upgrade the arms of some given units first, and all their old rifles were shipped off. For all we know, there are storage facilities in China that are stacked to the roof with 1-million-series rifles, but those just happened to be sent to units that were a long way from a convenient seaport, and when the time came to ship arms to Albania, they weren't considered. Just because that leaves a gap in our knowledge, it doesn't give us an obligation to fill that gap with speculation.
Hicap
Magazine Clips
- Jun 10, 2012
- 647
Nice backwards J! I got one of them from Classic too.
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