Petition for Concealed Carry for Veterans

[Minuteman]

Yup. If the current governor doesn't make inroads into this in his first term, there's little point in this community supporting him. This is a chance to show that who's in office matters.

Concur.

 

[Gryphon]

Yup. If the current governor doesn't make inroads into this in his first term, there's little point in this community supporting him. This is a chance to show that who's in office matters.

 

[Bald Fat Guy]

For today's historical allusion , we are like Slavery Opponents. One facton is looking to reform the institution , reduce the abuses , and make more humane. Another faction wants some form gradual phased in freedom. A third wants imeadate , total end to slavery , and actively opposes anything less.

 

[HeatSeeker]

OK I guess now I have to ask the hard question. No disrespect intended here, but what makes a veteran more qualified to carry than a non-veteran? A veteran could be a 22 year old guy that served 2 years in the Army. How is he more qualified to carry than a 40 year old guy that has owned firearms and has been shooting and hunting for the past 30 years? It isn't always the seasoned veteran that put in 25 years that we are talking about here, but your way would be to check the veteran box and pick up your permit.

As far as retired LE having permits, that to me is a no brainer. We are basically talking about people that have been in LE for 20+ years. Have been trained and have been carrying a firearm everyday for 20+ years.

 

[csanc123]

OK I guess now I have to ask the hard question. No disrespect intended here, but what makes a veteran more qualified to carry than a non-veteran? A veteran could be a 22 year old guy that served 2 years in the Army. How is he more qualified to carry than a 40 year old guy that has owned firearms and has been shooting and hunting for the past 30 years? It isn't always the seasoned veteran that put in 25 years that we are talking about here, but your way would be to check the veteran box and pick up your permit.

As far as retired LE having permits, that to me is a no brainer. We are basically talking about people that have been in LE for 20+ years. Have been trained and have been carrying a firearm everyday for 20+ years.

Nothing...

What makes a business owner, doctor, lawyer or politician more qualified?

 

[PJDiesel]

Nothing...

What makes a business owner, doctor, lawyer or politician more qualified?

Nothing. I have a permit and am far less qualified marksmanship and experience wise than probably half the people here.

 

[HeatSeeker]

Heatseeker & Blaster229: Pretty much yep. But you are ignoring the other people that are already ahead of the vet who already have their permits. And you are not ignoring the others in line, you are telling them there shouldn't be a line and you also agree they should be next and you also wish them good luck.

Having to provide a G&S reason that someone else decides is 'good enough' is wrong. It's also wrong for those who have permits to get in the way of others efforts to get theirs. What if next time they feel your reason to obtain a permit is no longer good enough? They put you back in the line, that's not right either. This entire process is arbitrary and capricious. I've been supporting others and involved in this issue for years. Will you attend hearings, join MSI, participate in rallies and support 2A in Maryland with me?

Could you please tell us who is trying to get in your way of getting a permit? Do you think this because some of us don't want to sign a meaningless online petition? I am all for you and everyone else getting a permit in MD. So fill out your application, get the required documents in order, and send it to:

Maryland State Police
Licensing Division
1111 Reisterstown Road
Pikesville, MD 21208
ATTN: Handgun Permit Unit

This is how I did it. I resent the fact that you think that I or anyone else with a permit is trying to stand in your way of getting a permit simply because we did what this state requires at this time.

 

[HeatSeeker]

Nothing...

What makes a business owner, doctor, lawyer or politician more qualified?

That is the point you are ignoring, but like it or not they have G&S and that is what you need in MD. They are not going to consider being a Veteran as G&S. So the only way to get over that hurdle is to become Shall Issue.

 

[Minuteman]

For today's historical allusion , we are like Slavery Opponents. One facton is looking to reform the institution , reduce the abuses , and make more humane. Another faction wants some form gradual phased in freedom. A third wants imeadate , total end to slavery , and actively opposes anything less.

Thats a really good way to capture this debate. I'm not taking a hard line on my position, but I've held it for several years now because of what I've personally experienced and seen happen on the stage of the judiciary hearings, public propaganda, back room meetings and a little inside baseball. I'm pretty convinced that the best approach is while we are working toward a long term 'shall issue' stance for Maryland (I'd like to see a comparative analysis of how other states have implemented 'shall issue'); our priorities should be:

1. Ensure Hogan appoints a more reasonable, pro-2A MDSP Superintendant
2. Have them delete the 'Good and Substantial' clause, it has been abused; or at least have it interpreted as any non-disqualified person for personal protection purposes. This alone will make us permissive 'May Issue' a huge step toward 'shall issue'
3. Remove all restrictions on current and future carry permits.
4. Work with our represenatives to support bills that may remove some of the more ridiculious and ineffective laws, like the 7 day wait for people who already have clearances, HQL's or own regulated firearms. The ballistic fingerprinting does nothing to help solve crime it only adds another expense and burden, remove the handgun roster, allow permit renewals to be every 5 years instead of ever 3, etc.
5. Chip away at the most ounerous provisions of SB281.
6. And oh, by the way... while we are doing these other more important things; help individuals and groups who are struggling with their handgun permit. Slowly bending things back toward Liberty for all.

OK I guess now I have to ask the hard question. No disrespect intended here, but what makes a veteran more qualified to carry than a non-veteran? A veteran could be a 22 year old guy that served 2 years in the Army. How is he more qualified to carry than a 40 year old guy that has owned firearms and has been shooting and hunting for the past 30 years? It isn't always the seasoned veteran that put in 25 years that we are talking about here, but your way would be to check the veteran box and pick up your permit.

As far as retired LE having permits, that to me is a no brainer. We are basically talking about people that have been in LE for 20+ years. Have been trained and have been carrying a firearm everyday for 20+ years.

I agree, I don't think there should be any special classes of people; just one fair standard for all. Trust me there are plenty of LEO's that one could question if they could be a danger or not, but I'm not trying to focus on who to exclude - the vast majority are already excluded, I'm trying to get more people included. The door is already open just a little, I'm only suggesting we just keep opening it more and more until one day, it's all the way open.

Again, I don't want this issue to divide or make anyone feel their opinion doesn't matter or is wrong. Also, I don't feel this particular issue (of supporting or opposing any person or group of people trying to get a permit) is a high priority. I'm just trying to convey in writing to you (many of you are friends, that might just disagree with me to some degree on this little fine point of strategy), to simply not oppose anyone or any group that is requesting loosening of some restrictions or letting them open the door a little wider.

Thanks for the thorough discussion, I hope to see all of you that chimed in at the next rally in Annapolis.

 

[csanc123]

That is the point you are ignoring, but like it or not they have G&S and that is what you need in MD. They are not going to consider being a Veteran as G&S. So the only way to get over that hurdle is to become Shall Issue.

I'm for shall issue...it was a rhetorical question.

 

[HeatSeeker]

Thats a really good way to capture this debate. I'm not taking a hard line on my position, but I've held it for several years now because of what I've personally experienced and seen happen on the stage of the judiciary hearings, public propaganda, back room meetings and a little inside baseball. I'm pretty convinced that the best approach is while we are working toward a long term 'shall issue' stance for Maryland (I'd like to see a comparative analysis of how other states have implemented 'shall issue'); our priorities should be:

1. Ensure Hogan appoints a more reasonable, pro-2A MDSP Superintendant
2. Have them delete the 'Good and Substantial' clause, it has been abused; or at least have it interpreted as any non-disqualified person for personal protection purposes. This alone will make us permissive 'May Issue' a huge step toward 'shall issue'
3. Remove all restrictions on current and future carry permits.
4. Work with our represenatives to support bills that may remove some of the more ridiculious and ineffective laws, like the 7 day wait for people who already have clearances, HQL's or own regulated firearms. The ballistic fingerprinting does nothing to help solve crime it only adds another expense and burden, remove the handgun roster, allow permit renewals to be every 5 years instead of ever 3, etc.
5. Chip away at the most ounerous provisions of SB281.
6. And oh, by the way... while we are doing these other more important things; help individuals and groups who are struggling with their handgun permit. Slowly bending things back toward Liberty for all.

I agree, I don't think there should be any special classes of people; just one fair standard for all. Trust me there are plenty of LEO's that one could question if they could be a danger or not, but I'm not trying to focus on who to exclude - the vast majority are already excluded, I'm trying to get more people included. The door is already open just a little, I'm only suggesting we just keep opening it more and more until one day, it's all the way open.

Again, I don't want this issue to divide or make anyone feel their opinion doesn't matter or is wrong. Also, I don't feel this particular issue (of supporting or opposing any person or group of people trying to get a permit) is a high priority. I'm just trying to convey in writing to you (many of you are friends, that might just disagree with me to some degree on this little fine point of strategy), to simply not oppose anyone or any group that is requesting loosening of some restrictions or letting them open the door a little wider.

Thanks for the thorough discussion, I hope to see all of you that chimed in at the next rally in Annapolis.

I understand what you are saying and basically agree, but think it is possible that if the state would loosen some restrictions and open the door a little wider that could make them feel they have appeased us enough and stand in the way of becoming a Shall Issue state.

 

[dblas]

Heatseeker & Blaster229: Pretty much yep. But you are ignoring the other people that are already ahead of the vet who already have their permits. And you are not ignoring the others in line, you are telling them there shouldn't be a line and you also agree they should be next and you also wish them good luck.

Having to provide a G&S reason that someone else decides is 'good enough' is wrong. It's also wrong for those who have permits to get in the way of others efforts to get theirs. What if next time they feel your reason to obtain a permit is no longer good enough? They put you back in the line, that's not right either. This entire process is arbitrary and capricious. I've been supporting others and involved in this issue for years. Will you attend hearings, join MSI, participate in rallies and support 2A in Maryland with me?

Yes, the above is arbitrary and capricious, but you know what, EVERYONE that wants a permit HAS to go through it. There are currently NO EXEMPTIONS for ANYONE. Not LEOs, not lawyers, not politicians, not doctors, not business owners, NO ONE.

So, my question is, what qualifies me, as a veteran, to have an exemption written into law for a carry permit, over the above? Why should you (Minuteman) get an exemption that does not apply to absolutely anyone else? Why should any veteran get an exemption for a carry permit, that does not apply to ANYONE else?

If anyone can intelligently articulate an answer I would be glad to hear it.

 

[dblas]

I like the way you put that and it's accurate, I want more people "In", not creating groups to exclude, 95+% are already excluded. All effort today should be on removing G&S or redefining it to mean simple personal protection. In the mean time supporting any individual or group to also be included. Please don't twist this into a divisive debate about the haves and have nots.

Go read my many posts on this subject, read my analogy of getting more people on the bus. And if you have a permit, don't be a hypocrite and hurt others chances of getting a permit.

Live and let live.

It is not a pipe dream that we can make incremental changes over time to make things better. If you don't want to support a vet being added to the short list of favorably considered, at least don't sabotage them. Many of you haven't been involved in this issue to know that in the past, some progun organizations have actually opposed measures that could have helped others with permits have it a bit easier. These things are very important and discussed all the time. If you are not involved in the debate, and you seem to care, you should be.

First of all, no one is excluded from applying and possibly attaining a carry permit in Maryland, except those that are prohibited person from owning a firearm.

Yes, MSP applies G&S in a very stringent manner, but guess what, Alabama is May issue with G&S and over 95% of their permit requests are approved. Guess what else, Alabama has no exemptions for anyone, just like Maryland.

You want to force MSP and the State's hand? How about a group gets together and comes up with an addition to COMAR to define G&S in COMAR and send it to MSP? MSP has 90 days to respond and if they don't act on the proposed amendment to COMAR, then MSP can be taken to court and sued over it.

Incrementalism does indeed work both ways, but we need to do it smarter, not harder.

 

[dblas]

Nothing...

What makes a business owner, doctor, lawyer or politician more qualified?

Nothing, but right now, the business owner, doctor, lawyer and politician all have to submit the same paperwork, go through the same paperwork, and pay all of the same fees that you do. They also have to go throughout the same interview process, background check and other BS that you do.

There are no exemptions or exceptions for any of the above mentioned classes. This would create the first "Class" of exempted individuals for a carry permit.

 

[dblas]

That is the point you are ignoring, but like it or not they have G&S and that is what you need in MD. They are not going to consider being a Veteran as G&S. So the only way to get over that hurdle is to become Shall Issue.

But they do not have an automatic G&S, they all still need to go the same things you do.

 

[dblas]

(snip)


I agree, I don't think there should be any special classes of people; just one fair standard for all. Trust me there are plenty of LEO's that one could question if they could be a danger or not, but I'm not trying to focus on who to exclude - the vast majority are already excluded, I'm trying to get more people included. The door is already open just a little, I'm only suggesting we just keep opening it more and more until one day, it's all the way open.

Again, I don't want this issue to divide or make anyone feel their opinion doesn't matter or is wrong. Also, I don't feel this particular issue (of supporting or opposing any person or group of people trying to get a permit) is a high priority. I'm just trying to convey in writing to you (many of you are friends, that might just disagree with me to some degree on this little fine point of strategy), to simply not oppose anyone or any group that is requesting loosening of some restrictions or letting them open the door a little wider.

Thanks for the thorough discussion, I hope to see all of you that chimed in at the next rally in Annapolis.

There is one fair standard for all, everyone has to apply and abide by the same laws and requirements.

What there isn't, is a fair application of the standard for all.

Ideally getting rid of G&S would be great, but that requires a bill to be passed by the GA. The better place to put our respective energies and focus on this issue is COMAR. See my above post on submitting a proposal to define G&S in COMAR.


Change COMAR so that the standard is fairly applied for all.

 

[dblas]

And please do not take my comments to squelch the discussion, it is a good one and needs to continue, as there have been some good ideas posted.

Discussion, is the easiest and best way for new ideas to come about.

 

[teratos]

But they do not have an automatic G&S, they all still need to go the same things you do.

This is correct. I do not get my permit just because I'm a doctor. I work in a high crime area and transport narcotics. If I didn't, I would have been denied.

 

[Minuteman]

I don't see anything new here, I can't keep repeating what I'm saying different ways, I've tried a bus analogy, "let's get more and more people on the bus", until we all arrive.

I've used a line analogy, there are people already in line, let's get everyone in line and educate them while they wait.

I've used an open door analogy, let's keep opening the door it's only cracked open right now.

I've said repeatedly that veterans are equal to all others, in this regard; please stop trying to divide us. Stop suggesting this will exclude people, if it passes, it will simply include more people.

Let me try one more super simple observation:

Let's say there are 10,000 red blooded Maryland citizens legally armed and willing/able to protect life today from violent criminals.

Now let's say there is a chance to add one more person or 500 more Patriots that are suddenly also allowed to legally walk around in public armed and ready to defend a life.

Finally I ask if you can't see how obviously right supporting veterans and every other group we might be able to join the ranks of the 10,000 or so already among us... If anyone can't understand this, it might be true - at times we are our own worst enemy.

I have a security committee meeting tonight, but if one of you want to meet or just call me tomorrow around 4pm, I'm open to discuss again.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[Minuteman]

This is correct. I do not get my permit just because I'm a doctor. I work in a high crime area and transport narcotics. If I didn't, I would have been denied.

Of course, who doesn't understand this. No one automatically gets a permit everyone must demonstrate G&S. Who's saying otherwise?