Widener's Mosin is Izhevsk 91/30 PU

[Yingpin]

This was from another thread but now I have some additional information and questions so I figured I would start a new thread on my recent acquisition from Widener's. I ordered this on 7/21/13 when they were listed again for $129. It was noted by h2U that there were numbers on the side of the barrel and I started to look into things further. Anyone else receive one of these from this months orders?

There is a six digit number that has a single line "scratched" through it and then further on the right where it stats the model it has a 10 digit number but it looks more modern and etched in.

Did some research last night and it appears this rifle was designed for a scope based on the three screw holes inside of the receiver. They are filled in but only partially as I can still see the threads. There are also some light mark on the outside of the receiver in the form of circles that may also be signs of this Similar to these http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/exsniperPEroundl.JPG

Numbers on the outside of the receiver;


Inside my receiver


Based on the research that I managed to do, this rifle is considered to be an Izhevsk 91/30 PU Ex-Sniper rifle. I am not sure what this means to the value and I understand that they are not necessarily rare.

The barrel has the 6 digits "crossed" out but not sure why this would be. I also understand that the bolt would have been swapped to a straight bolt when re-arsenal. This bolt however has matching numbers as the rest of the rifle so would that the case? The top of the barrel around the front post sight is "blacker" than the rest almost like it was re-worked but I don't know. Would this have had a sight post added if the barrel was originally sniper quality and had a scope mounted? The right lower side of the receiver has the same "blackening" that almost looks like black nail polish can be seen in the last pic above). Anyone know what this is or have any additional info???

 

[Machodoc]

There is a six digit number that has a single line "scratched" through it and then further on the right where it stats the model it has a 10 digit number but it looks more modern and etched in.

Did some research last night and it appears this rifle was designed for a scope based on the three screw holes inside of the receiver. They are filled in but only partially as I can still see the threads. There are also some light mark on the outside of the receiver in the form of circles that may also be signs of this.

Based on the research that I managed to do, this rifle is considered to be an Izhevsk 91/30 PU Ex-Sniper rifle. I am not sure what this means to the value and I understand that they are not necessarily rare.

The barrel has the 6 digits "crossed" out but not sure why this would be. I also understand that the bolt would have been swapped to a straight bolt when re-arsenal. This bolt however has matching numbers as the rest of the rifle so would that the case? The top of the barrel around the front post sight is "blacker" than the rest almost like it was re-worked but I don't know. Would this have had a sight post added if the barrel was originally sniper quality and had a scope mounted? The right lower side of the receiver has the same "blackening" that almost looks like black nail polish can be seen in the last pic above). Anyone know what this is or have any additional info???

Photos deleted for brevity.

It's a fully re-arsenaled ex-sniper.

Just so there isn't any confusion about numbers ... There are actually three sets of numbers on the one shown: the Russian serial number for the rifle; the importer's serial number (this one starts with "9130", the model of rifle, it's the one that needs to be in your Bound Book, but I put that and the original number in mine); and the serial number for the scope ... the one shown as being marked out with a line.

When all of these rifles were re-arsenaled and stored in preparation for the next great war, they were disassembled, the various types of parts were put into bins or barrels full of bolts, etc., the individual parts were refurbished, and then they were reassembled. During that refurbishment process the original serial numbers were "scrubbed" off or marked over [EDIT: from all the removable groups, but not the receiver], and new ones were added as they were being reassembled [EDIT: the new numbers were stamped on to match the number on the receiver. Only rarely was a receiver re-numbered, but it did happen.]. That's why you can have a numbers-matching straight-handled bolt and a "normal" stock on an ex-sniper. (The cut-outs on the sniper stocks were plugged in the same way as damaged stocks, and they were put back into service as regular stocks.)

The scope mounting holes on the receivers had screws put into them, then the screws were welded in place (perhaps with a type of spot welder) and the heads ground off flush with the outside of the receiver ... but you can still see the plugs from the inside.

The value of these refurbished snipers is generally only a bit more than that of a regular Mosin. They aren't terribly rare, but they are unusual and interesting. They've lost the advantage they once may have had of the barrels being bedded carfully into the stocks, and removing the welded screws to place a scope back onto them is likely to take the same work as drilling and tapping any Mosin to mount a scope. Then you'd have to find a replacement stock, etc.

The one thing that is a bit puzzling about some of these is that it appears that the original trigger groups might not have always been separated from the barrel and receiver during the refurbish process. It would make more sense for them to have been separated like the other components, but sometimes ... fairly often, I suspect ... you find an ex-sniper that has a trigger pull that's uncharacteristically smooth and light for a Mosin. I've got an ex-sniper like that, and have seen a couple of others. They generally make very good shooters ... a bit better than average.

 

[psoyring]

Although I see the Izhevsk logo I can't read the last digit of the production year but 1943 is the most common followed by 1944, 1942 is much better and if the date is not one of these but postwar you really hit the lottery.

 

[Yingpin]

Although I see the Izhevsk logo I can't read the last digit of the production year but 1943 is the most common followed by 1944, 1942 is much better and if the date is not one of these but postwar you really hit the lottery.

It is a 1943, thanks for the additional info! I love learning about these rifles and wonder about the true history of them. Wish I could learn more about mine!

 

[h2u]

Post some pics and ask questions. I bet there are several people on this board that will answer your questions-and enjoy doing it!
I like to add stuff when the others are busy elsewhere and haven't had a chance to chime in. I remember the days when I was a Mosin n00b and couldn't get answers fast enough

 

[Machodoc]

Just to revisit this thread, now that I've had a chance to take some pics, here are a couple of things that I was talking about earlier:

• The serial number for the scope should appear on the side of the receiver.
• Even if the plugs used to fill the scope's mounting holes don't show on the outside, they will show on the inside.
• Often, only two screws will be obvious, but if you look up toward the chamber, and then back into the bolt channel, you will usually see two pair of holes.
• An "all matching" Soviet Mosin is nearly always a re-arsenaled "mixmaster" of parts from different rifles. This mag cover shows the current serial number, along with signs that a previous serial was scrubbed off of it. The apparent absence of grind marks doesn't necessarily mean that a part hasn't been scrubbed and re-numbered. As you can see in this picture, part of the old number is showing scrub marks over it, but part was buffed down well enough that it would otherwise look like the new stamping was the original.
• Here the various serial numbers are identified.

 

[Alphabrew]

Great ex-sniper photos here. Now you know what to look for if you want an ex!

 

[h2u]

Nice write up and pics, Machodoc

This is solid information for the Mosin n00bs.

 

[Yingpin]

Thanks for the information and I am glad that I got one for my first order. Its kind of a nice surprise!

 

[Alphabrew]

Thanks for the information and I am glad that I got one for my first order. Its kind of a nice surprise!

No doubt, that's a kick a$$ first order. I wish that rifle could talk and I could understand Russian.

 

[Machodoc]

I wish that rifle could talk and I could understand Russian.

Wouldn't that be nice?

 

[Yingpin]

Machodoc,

Since I only have one.....so far, could you tell me what the standard trigger pull is on a Mosin vs. the one you have that is slightly better? I don't have a way to gauge it yet, but I could.

you wrote "you find an ex-sniper that has a trigger pull that's uncharacteristically smooth and light for a Mosin. I've got an ex-sniper like that, and have seen a couple of others. They generally make very good shooters ... a bit better than average"

 

[Machodoc]

Machodoc,

Since I only have one.....so far, could you tell me what the standard trigger pull is on a Mosin vs. the one you have that is slightly better? I don't have a way to gauge it yet, but I could.

you wrote "you find an ex-sniper that has a trigger pull that's uncharacteristically smooth and light for a Mosin. I've got an ex-sniper like that, and have seen a couple of others. They generally make very good shooters ... a bit better than average"

Let's put it this way ... the typical trigger pull on a Mosin is sort of like pulling a brick 1/2" over a sidewalk with your crooked trigger finger. OK. Maybe not quite that bad, but some of them are pretty close.

If the one that you have isn't "gritty" feeling, and it breaks at about 3 pounds, you've got a nice one. There are a few different things that you can do to one that's rough (polish mating surfaces, shim the seer spring, etc.), but most of the re-arsenaled rifles have triggers that you wouldn't describe with words like "slick" or "light".

 

[Combloc]

I have a rearsenaled PU that was kept a sniper after the rework in approx. 1968. It retains a slick and smooth trigger pull. It's about the same as a Chinese AK. I also have a nonreworked M91 from 1916. It has a very good pull too. I assume that most M91's will have a good pull but that is only a guess. I think that the Soviets just simply didn't see the need to take the time on a triggers for rifles that they considered to be expendable. In other words, I think that the design is good, it's just a matter of implementation.