Why didn’t we use the Dreyse Needle Rifle in the American Civil War?

[calicojack]

I found this video interesting. I would like to see a demo of one of these needle rifles in person one day.

 

[Blacksmith101]

If you are curious about Needle Guns check out this thread:

Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting​

Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

I just got a Chassepot needle rifle. After cleaning it up , fabricating missing parts, and making a few test paper ammo for it, shooting the old gun the first time was so enjoyable and delightful, I think I must share the experience with everyone here. I did not expect a lot from this...

www.mdshooters.com

and

Mystery Rifle: Dreyse Needle Gun?​

Mystery Rifle: Dreyse Needle Gun?

I found this yesterday from a "relatively" local guy. He didn't know much about it other than it's a Dreyse Needle Gun. I can't say that I know much about them either, but we made a deal as to what he thought was fair, and I took it home with me. Apparently it'd been sitting in his attic for "at...

www.mdshooters.com

 

[Threeband]

That guy has some really good, well thought out videos.

 

[Mr Oni]

That guy has some really good, well thought out videos.

Yes I enjoy them alot especially about the accuracy of smoothbore muskets.

 

[noddaz]

 

[Doco Overboard]

I think one of the reasons is interchangeability in parts.
Even the Enfield factory up until this period had problems with continuity of manufacture until beginning to supply rifles for the war between the states and they're own country even.
Up until a certain time, ancillary parts such as timber, fittings etc were made by subs and not in a factory.
The end of the Brown Bess period signaled the end of that sort of thing.
The other is the ammo, prepared cartridges that were different other than what could be readily prepared by troopers that were reliable was an issue. Some early metallic cartridges were already undertaken in this country as the war between the states was underway. Rim-fire cartridges being one of them and already understood to be a better sytem for ignition.
The European armies typically issued other arms that differed from regular infantry for trial to certain persons not whole sections as technology advanced and then arms factories making all the necessary parts the nearer metallic cartridges became prevalent for where reliability standards and methods of production could be more strictly controlled.
Lastly volley fire was a widley used tactic that predated modern moving warfare as we know it today as well as advancements in machine gunning tactics which happen to be not effectively utilized until just prior to WW1 where the Teutonic armies were already utilizing the strategy. Learned for the Japs in the Russo Jap war, England still relied on volley fire vs application of machine guns using sheaf and intersecting fire tactics like the Germans did from the onset.

 

[psucobra96]

Never understood volley fire. I see it in moves and never understand why they don’t command everyone to duck. Honor is stupid if you lose your men to prove an improvable point that bravery beats bullets.

I wonder what the standard distance was in the civil war in open fields. 150 yards is a good distance but I guess back then everything was open fields. Thinking about Pickett’s charge they advanced in an open field for almost a mile, but accuracy had to have been low until the last 300 yards or so I’m guessing. Im not sure if there is any data at what point Pickett’s brigades took their heaviest casualties. On a side not I never will
understand why Lee thought it was a good idea to slow march thousand of troops in lines center field into
the enemies center over open field.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

The War Department suffered from the NIH Syndrome…Not Invented Here…for much of its history up to and including much of the DOD era. They also refused to buy Spencer Rifles even after its superiority was demonstrated. It wasn’t until after President Lincoln ordered the Spencer purchased that any were issued…and then grudgingly.

The powers that be were wedded to the idea of not wasting ammunition and it was believed any kind of repeating rifle would make soldiers do exactly that. That idea is why the 1903 Springfield has the magazine cutoff…the intent was originally to keep the rifle a single shot with the rounds in the internal magazine in reserve for an emergency.

 

[BurkeM]

Never understood volley fire.

The musket was designed for volley fire, knowing the system would -on average- MISS a man sized target at 100 yards. However, 30-45% of 100 muskets fired from a line of troops would kill or disable a portion of the enemy lines. After 2 or 3 volleys, one side would break and run, the remaining troops win. Troops with the highest morale consistently won. Also, following a volley or two, the winners would advance with fixed bayonets to close the deal. Few men held their ground after a thousand musket balls whizzed by, followed by a wall of advancing 24" bayonets.

... bravery beats bullets.

It did. Superior training, discipline and morale won- repeatedly.

I wonder what the standard distance was in the civil war in open fields.

Most of the battles were engaged at 100 to 3,000 yards, extremely variable across 18 states and different regions. Farmland is rarely flat- is rises and has depressions. Walk Antietam or Gettysburg to see the actual sites.

See Culps Hill for a battlesite that was both hilly and wooded, with Union troops behind stone breastworks.

back then everything was open fields.

No. Many engagements happened in Cornfields where the corn was taller than the troops. Other sites were orchards, woods, swampland, riverbanks, creeks, railroad cuts, or fighting in deep trenches or against brick or earthen fortifications, to include urban fights - street to street, basements and barns.

Thinking about Pickett’s charge they advanced in an open field for almost a mile,

Popular misconception. All of the regiments and battalions formed up in the woodlines, out of sight. Some had further to march than others, and the terrain was undulating. One major disruptor was a series of fences 5-7 feet high that troops had to climb over or knock down- under intermittent fire.

For most of the advance, Union troops were ordered NOT to fire, to save ammunition until the last few hundred yards. The infantry believed that the Yankee cannons had been destroyed by heavy bombardment- until they unleashed double canister at close range.

... I never will understand why Lee thought it was a good idea to slow march thousand of troops in lines ...into the enemies center over open field.

He believed that heavy artillery bombardment had killed or disabled most of the defenders- that was the total plan. He also expected CS Cavalry to simultaneously attack the center of the ridge- from behind. Custer spoled that attack.

 

[Mr Oni]

The War Department suffered from the NIH Syndrome…Not Invented Here…for much of its history up to and including much of the DOD era. They also refused to buy Spencer Rifles even after its superiority was demonstrated. It wasn’t until after President Lincoln ordered the Spencer purchased that any were issued…and then grudgingly.

The powers that be were wedded to the idea of not wasting ammunition and it was believed any kind of repeating rifle would make soldiers do exactly that. That idea is why the 1903 Springfield has the magazine cutoff…the intent was originally to keep the rifle a single shot with the rounds in the internal magazine in reserve for an emergency.

As paper cartridges says in the video they already had a far more accurate rifle and the logistics to support it they had no need for the mostly inferior Dreyse.