What happened to the enbloc clips? (WWII)

[Ponder_MD]

Am I correct in assuming that enbloc clips were considered to be a disposable item on the battlefield in WWII and Korea?
I have a hard time believing that even during calm periods that troops were picking these up off the ground and reloading them.

 

[somd_mustangs]

Were the troops typically supplied with bandoleers of loaded clips, or loose rounds?

 

[lazarus]

Were the troops typically supplied with bandoleers of loaded clips, or loose rounds?

enbloc clips. There were also 5 round stripper clips for 1903s. I don't believe .30-06 was ever supplied loose. It was on a belt for a 1919, an enbloc for an M1 or a stripper clip for a 1903A3.

I have heard that in the field procedure often led troops to grab some stripper clips for their M1 Garands as well, because sometimes they'd fire off just a few rounds and rather than ejecting the clip and dealing with that mess, they'd pull a few rounds off a 1903 stripper clip to reload the clip in the rifle (which can be done).

M1 carbine ammunition was sometimes supplied loose in cans, but was often supplied loaded in magazines IIRC. M1 carbine magazines were treated as disposable in the war and little effort was taken to reuse them generally.

 

[ken792]

Were the troops typically supplied with bandoleers of loaded clips, or loose rounds?

Ammo was factory packed appropriately and clips were disposable. Ammo for Garands was packed on en bloc clips and bandoleers and ammo for 03s and M1917s was packed on stripper clips and bandoleers.

I have read accounts of troops in the Philippines and on Guadalcanal having to reuse Garand clips, including having to remove cartridges off 03 clips. Later in WWII, that far less of an issue.

Here are the different packaging formats.

List of the United States Army munitions by supply catalog designation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Other countries reused clips. The Ethiopian and Pakistani .30/06 on the market is in mixed US clips. The Ethiopian clips are often refinished by painting. Greek ammo shows up in mixed US, Dutch, Danish, Italian, and West German clips.

enbloc clips. There were also 5 round stripper clips for 1903s. I don't believe .30-06 was ever supplied loose. It was on a belt for a 1919, an enbloc for an M1 or a stripper clip for a 1903A3.

I have heard that in the field procedure often led troops to grab some stripper clips for their M1 Garands as well, because sometimes they'd fire off just a few rounds and rather than ejecting the clip and dealing with that mess, they'd pull a few rounds off a 1903 stripper clip to reload the clip in the rifle (which can be done).

M1 carbine ammunition was sometimes supplied loose in cans, but was often supplied loaded in magazines IIRC. M1 carbine magazines were treated as disposable in the war and little effort was taken to reuse them generally.

.30/06 was often supplied loose in 20rd cardboard cartons. That was mainly to be used by BAR gunners or anyone reloading/loading Browning belts/links.

.30 Carbine was only ever packed from the factory during WWII in 45 and 50rd boxes. Mags were loaded by users or in the rear to be handed out. Clips and bandoleers for .30 Carbine weren’t used until postwar.

 

[ken792]

Reloading or at least having to pack clips at a level lower than the factory was considered early in the service life of the Garand when en bloc production hadn’t caught up and ammo wasn’t always factory loaded in them. According to the article, none had to be procured after 1940.

They could load en bloc clips off of 20rd cartons or 03 clips.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/55/3795/extrascarce-documented-john-garand-patent-clip-loading-device-f

US2345593A - Clip loading machine - Google Patents

 

[lazarus]

Ammo was factory packed appropriately and clips were disposable. Ammo for Garands was packed on en bloc clips and bandoleers and ammo for 03s and M1917s was packed on stripper clips and bandoleers.

I have read accounts of troops in the Philippines and on Guadalcanal having to reuse Garand clips, including having to remove cartridges off 03 clips. Later in WWII, that far less of an issue.

Here are the different packaging formats.

List of the United States Army munitions by supply catalog designation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Other countries reused clips. The Ethiopian and Pakistani .30/06 on the market is in mixed US clips. The Ethiopian clips are often refinished by painting. Greek ammo shows up in mixed US, Dutch, Danish, Italian, and West German clips.


.30/06 was often supplied loose in 20rd cardboard cartons. That was mainly to be used by BAR gunners or anyone reloading/loading Browning belts/links.

.30 Carbine was only ever packed from the factory during WWII in 45 and 50rd boxes. Mags were loaded by users or in the rear to be handed out. Clips and bandoleers for .30 Carbine weren’t used until postwar.

Doh!

I forgot about the BAR entirely.

But thank you for correcting me in genera

 

[somd_mustangs]

... and the Johnson M1941 (granted not many made it onto the battlefield). You could load the rotary magazine with a 1903 stripper clip or by hand.

 

[SKIP]

I have not been able to find a video on how the enbloc were loaded. Was it done manually by factory workers.

 

[tallen702]

I have not been able to find a video on how the enbloc were loaded. Was it done manually by factory workers.

Here's a (repro?) of the clip loader that had the patent posted earlier, this is how it was done at the factory.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

Even though the problem had been resolved pre-war…i believe the en bloc clips were all loaded in a specific way to avoid the infamous seventh round stoppage.

 

[SKIP]

Here's a (repro?) of the clip loader that had the patent posted earlier, this is how it was done at the factory.

I saw that clip but I was curious how it was done during
war production. I don't think they would have hundreds of these hand cranked machines going night and day.

 

[Doco Overboard]

HR demonstrates how to load with two rounds by crossing them if anyone ever wanted to learn how thats done.
And most importantly the reason why, just before the demo.
Badger Ordnance used to make a tool that was designed to punch the rear of clips to help them load easier but I dont know if they're still around any longer.
I didn't watch the whole thing but I'm sure he goes on about how to top a clip off too when using an M1.
Somewhere else the same guy has another vid for how to use a sling, both a cotton and 1907 which is a pretty good one too I think.

 

[ken792]

Here's a (repro?) of the clip loader that had the patent posted earlier, this is how it was done at the factory.

None of those hand loaders had to be procured after the 1940 FY, so the assumption is that there was a new machine afterwards for the factories.

 

[Ponder_MD]

Even though the problem had been resolved pre-war…i believe the en bloc clips were all loaded in a specific way to avoid the infamous seventh round stoppage.

The 7th round stoppage was caused by a minor design defect that required machining/welding the guide ribs in the receiver.

Something that may interest people, 7th round stoppage. - M1 Garand Forum.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5V_qIZEOUg

www.m1garandforum.com

Yes, it could be overcome by loading the clips a particular way but the Army didn't want to rely on that in combat.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

I used to own M1 serial number 814…you could clearly see where the welding was due to difference in finish color.

 

[Threeband]

The seventh round stoppage occurred on the first production rifles, because a machining shortcut was made which removed a small projection meant to guide the left side cartridges, not understanding its purpose in Garand's design.

When Garand realized what had been done, he immediately corrected the manufacturing process. Those rifles which had been incorrectly machined were repaired by welding up the appropriate lug. T.O.M.B. in the previous post is saying he used to have one of those very early rifles (which by the way would have originally been a Gas Trap rifle.).

Some of the affected rifles were provided for use in the National Matches, the first opportunity for many to see and try out the new rifle. It would have made a very bad first impression if they had failed on the seventh round.

It was found that clips loaded with the left side cartridge on top would not have the stoppage. It occurred only with clips loaded the "normal" way, with the right side cartridge on top.

To avoid making a bad first impression at the National Matches, all the clips provided with those rifles were reloaded to have the left side cartridges on top.

 

[ken792]

The seventh round stoppage occurred on the first production rifles, because a machining shortcut was made which removed a small projection meant to guide the left side cartridges, not understanding its purpose in Garand's design.

When Garand realized what had been done, he immediately corrected the manufacturing process. Those rifles which had been incorrectly machined were repaired by welding up the appropriate lug. T.O.M.B. in the previous post is saying he used to have one of those very early rifles (which by the way would have originally been a Gas Trap rifle.).

Some of the affected rifles were provided for use in the National Matches, the first opportunity for many to see and try out the new rifle. It would have made a very bad first impression if they had failed on the seventh round.

It was found that clips loaded with the left side cartridge on top would not have the stoppage. It occurred only with clips loaded the "normal" way, with the right side cartridge on top.

To avoid making a bad first impression at the National Matches, all the clips provided with those rifles were reloaded to have the left side cartridges on top.

You got that backwards. The normal way of top round right worked fine. SA experimented with some followers and clips that would not allow them to be loaded backwards, but I believe only the special followers were used at the National Matches. Competitors were not allowed to load their own clips then as well.

 

[Threeband]

Hey Ken! I'll take your word for it, but I had it in my head that the clips were loaded backwards at the matches. I'm too lazy to go dig out my books right now.