trusts - yay/nay, and single shot vs all NFA items included

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  • are trusts currently necessary/ worth setting up for NFA items?

    • no, skip the trust all together

      Votes: 2 11.8%
    • yes, i prefer "single shot" trusts, or trusts per indiviual item

      Votes: 3 17.6%
    • yes, i prefer to have one trust and add however many items i want/own/disclose ownership of to it

      Votes: 11 64.7%
    • it's too complicated for a poll, my answer's in the comments

      Votes: 1 5.9%

    • Total voters
      17

    thedutchtouch

    Active Member
    Feb 14, 2023
    173
    20740
    As what seems like is the pattern with most new to NFA purchases people, I've been spending a bunch of time reading about supressors, trusts, and other NFA items. I've been searching and reading as many old threads as possible, but they're just that, old. Many threads reference rule/law changes and how they may or may not affect the need for trusts, but are from 2-3-10 years ago so I figured (at the risk of being redundant) I'd start a poll to gauge current opinions as of March 2023.

    Trusts - are they needed any more? and if you say yes, what's your preference, a single shot trust for each item, or a larger trust that you can add each item to? There seems to be pros/cons to either to me, single shot lets you control access/inheritance to each item individually without having to pay again, however that could also be seen as a hassle to have to update/ keep track of each one separately depending on the scenario.

    Personally I fall on the "yes" side but am just unsure about a gun trust and adding all items to it vs single shot trust for each item - I'm looking at buying two different supressors at the moment, and likely won't stop there, so the initial part of this is the financial side, (using silencershop prices as a reference here) paying ~25 dollars apiece is cheaper upfront for the single shot(s) vs ~130 for a gun trust (but this would likely would be lower cost long term). In terms of inheritance/access, I have one other person, my brother, that I'd like to allow access to my silencers "now" (after purchased/received), as well as two minor children that I'd like to inherit my items when the time comes, without their mother or the courts knowing the details. Perhaps this changes with a new hunting buddy down the road.

    Thanks for indulging a repeat topic, I'm trying to learn as quickly and efficiently as I can as I know these purchases will take quite a while to clear, and the best time to buy anything like this is in the past, with the second best time being ASAP ;). Hopefully this will help add some clarity for me and other newbies with an "updated" thread. Please feel free to call me out for not being able to search properly if I've missed threads that already answer this and are at least within the last year or so.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,029
    If you have heirs(and you say you do), then a trust is worth it. I went with a single trust because that was pretty much all there was at the time. It might help to simplify things that way, but I don't speak from experience in that regard.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,999
    Political refugee in WV
    Go with all items in a single trust. Make sure the trust can accept Form 1 and Form 4 items. You'll thank me later.

    Single shot trusts aren't worth a damn in my eyes other than to make easy money for Silencer Shop. Single shot trusts cannot hold a Form 1 item. That is a deal breaker for a lot of people.
     

    thedutchtouch

    Active Member
    Feb 14, 2023
    173
    20740
    All items in a single trust seems to be the winner (if doing a trust in the first place). I have a crazy ex and kids so I'll be doing one. Possibly two actually, one for NFA, one for "regular" guns.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,999
    Political refugee in WV
    All items in a single trust seems to be the winner (if doing a trust in the first place). I have a crazy ex and kids so I'll be doing one. Possibly two actually, one for NFA, one for "regular" guns.
    Title 1 items can not be held by a trust. No matter what anybody tries to tell you. If you attempt to do that, you are committing perjury on the 4473 and engaging in a straw sale because you are not the actual buyer.

    NFA trusts are different in that they are viewed as a corporation/ entity that can legally possess Title 2 items.
     

    thedutchtouch

    Active Member
    Feb 14, 2023
    173
    20740
    Title 1 items can not be held by a trust. No matter what anybody tries to tell you. If you attempt to do that, you are committing perjury on the 4473 and engaging in a straw sale because you are not the actual buyer.

    NFA trusts are different in that they are viewed as a corporation/ entity that can legally possess Title 2 items.
    Ah interesting. I was following this type of advice re:title 1 items https://freilichlaw.com/blog/should-you-own-a-gun-without-a-gun-trust-in-maryland/#:~:text=A gun trust is a,a single rifle or pistol.

    https://www.douglasturner.com/properly-transferring-title-i-firearms-to-your-trust/ (Colorado specific, but assume it still applies because they are dealing with the same federal govt)
     

    Lafayette

    Not that kind of doctor
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2021
    506
    Maryland
    Title 1 items can not be held by a trust. No matter what anybody tries to tell you. If you attempt to do that, you are committing perjury on the 4473 and engaging in a straw sale because you are not the actual buyer.

    NFA trusts are different in that they are viewed as a corporation/ entity that can legally possess Title 2 items.
    My understanding is that this is correct in Maryland (gun trust can’t hold regular, non-taxed firearms.) However I thought there are states in which a title 1 item can be transferred to and held by a trust. This is a service advertised by Arsenal Attorneys among others (obviously in other states.)

    Is this wrong? Thanks!
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,999
    Political refugee in WV
    My understanding is that this is correct in Maryland (gun trust can’t hold regular, non-taxed firearms.) However I thought there are states in which a title 1 item can be transferred to and held by a trust. This is a service advertised by Arsenal Attorneys among others (obviously in other states.)

    Is this wrong? Thanks!
    Federal law is clear on the 4473 as to if you are the actual buyer. If you are buying it for a trust, you are not the actual buyer, the trust is the entity that must fill out the form. Because a trust is not an individual, it can not purchase a firearm.

    In the NFA world, a trust is a legal entity where every person that is a trustee must fill out a RPQ (Responsible Person Questionnaire), which is the equivalent of a 4473. So a 4473 is run on all individual trustees in the trust before a stamp is issued.

    Title 1 trusts carry zero force of law, and do not hold water in court when you die. It's a money grab for those that don't know any better.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,999
    Political refugee in WV
    Ah interesting. I was following this type of advice re:title 1 items https://freilichlaw.com/blog/should-you-own-a-gun-without-a-gun-trust-in-maryland/#:~:text=A gun trust is a,a single rifle or pistol.

    https://www.douglasturner.com/properly-transferring-title-i-firearms-to-your-trust/ (Colorado specific, but assume it still applies because they are dealing with the same federal govt)
    See my above post (#14).

    If you go with a NFA trust and join the NFA world, you'll quickly see what they are trying to do with Title 1 trusts and how Title 1 trusts are about as worthless as t¡ts on a bull.
     
    Last edited:

    thedutchtouch

    Active Member
    Feb 14, 2023
    173
    20740
    See my above post (#14).

    If you go with a NFA trust and join the NFA world, you'll quickly see what they are trying to do with Title 1 trusts and how Title 1 trusts are about as worthless as t¡ts on a bull.
    Thanks again. Like I've said earlier/elsewhere definitely a newbie here so appreciate the advice. And since I'm currently going through a divorce I understand all too well about the money grabbing angle.
     

    Lafayette

    Not that kind of doctor
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2021
    506
    Maryland
    Federal law is clear on the 4473 as to if you are the actual buyer. If you are buying it for a trust, you are not the actual buyer, the trust is the entity that must fill out the form. Because a trust is not an individual, it can not purchase a firearm.

    In the NFA world, a trust is a legal entity where every person that is a trustee must fill out a RPQ (Responsible Person Questionnaire), which is the equivalent of a 4473. So a 4473 is run on all individual trustees in the trust before a stamp is issued.

    Title 1 trusts carry zero force of law, and do not hold water in court when you die. It's a money grab for those that don't know any better.
    Good to know.

    So then how would it be different for someone (again, not in Maryland) to purchase a firearm as a gift for someone (who is presumably not prohibited) than to purchase a firearm then "gift" to the trust? As I understand it the buyer is still truthfully filling out the 4473; they are after all the buyer and not the trust.

    Just trying to wrap my head around a concept that I don't really understand.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,999
    Political refugee in WV
    Good to know.

    So then how would it be different for someone (again, not in Maryland) to purchase a firearm as a gift for someone (who is presumably not prohibited) than to purchase a firearm then "gift" to the trust? As I understand it the buyer is still truthfully filling out the 4473; they are after all the buyer and not the trust.

    Just trying to wrap my head around a concept that I don't really understand.

    Individual for an individual versus individual for a entity.

    You can gift something to a individual, but not a entity.
     

    Bananas79

    Member
    Apr 11, 2021
    58
    So... I apologize if this is hijacking the thread, but topic is so close, seems silly to start a new thread--
    Not sure how I missed the MSP advisory in March, but with the denial of the initial injuction... now that I see what MSP is doing, Im going to give in and Form1 my braced pistols (hell, they are already registered as pistols in MD anyway...) Above Ive seen a lot of people preferring the Single Shot... which I dont understand, but anyway -... I want to set up a Gun Trust. Will use it now for pistol-braced SBRs and eventually when I feel like wasting several hundreds of dollars, move all my cans to it as well. Prices seem to vary... Not trying to waste money, but also probably need some support with setting this up -

    Does anyone have any recommendations for which company/website to use to set this thing up? Prefer someone that is quick, provides some guidance, etc -- but Im also running a bit short on time, since I want to set this up before registering my braced pistols for form1 by end of month.

    Thanks in advance
     

    Lafayette

    Not that kind of doctor
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2021
    506
    Maryland
    If you want to use the amnesty program and get a “free” stamp, you cannot use a trust (unless the pistol was already in a trust.)

    You will have to register for the stamp as an individual.

    However, if you are willing to forgo the “free” stamp and pay $200 you will be able to do it using a trust.

    At least, that is my understanding. Consult a lawyer if you want info to rely on.
     

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