School me on pistol optics:

[tallen702]

So, a few months back, a Sig P365X followed me home from AM Shooting in Damascus. I got 3 mags and the Sig holster in the package and I love the gun. It's probably the best pistol I own (not a hard task given that most of my pistols are C&R items from former communist countries). That said, I'm middle-aged and my eyesight ain't what it used to be. I know that I could easily slap a Romeo Zero on this thing and call it a day, but I'm not that kind of guy.
So, talk to me about pistol optics. I assume a reflex or red dot are the way to go for a concealed-carry pistol, but what should I look for, and more importantly, look out for?

 

[shocker998md]

I have a love hate relationship with them. My back ground is a career of iron sight pistol shooting in the Marines with 3 years of coaching and teaching time.

I find they are good once a shooter figures out the presentation of the weapon for your eyes to pick up the dot. We messed with trijicon rmrs the last few months on the m18 sig and I don't like it. I'm faster on irons to pickup my sights on target.

Now I will say holosun crushed it with the donut of death ring around the dot, I got on that quicker. I'm sure with more dry firing I could learn to shoot a dot but I've got almost two decades of pushing iron sights and I don't even want to know how many hours dry firing barretta 92 and g19s.

I have one rmr on a psa dagger to be a range toy suppressed. My g19 and g48 stay irons until I find a reason to get better with an optic and make the swap.


Best advice I can give is try someone's, then find one with the circle dot.

 

[wb3jma]

speaking of eyesite do you have any stigmatisms? I do and having shot iron sights growing up I found the hardware how they distort the dot appearing as starts, smears or double dots as the most usual. In my case a double dot and my optometrist was not able to correct quite enough to make that second dot fade away enough not to be a distraction.

 

[smokey]

green dot sight

I've been shooting for about a year. Decided I really like the S & W .357 and 9MM hellcat pro the best. I'd like to purchase green dots for them. Any recommendations? Nothing too expensive yet but no pieces of crap. Thanks. Have a great 2023!!!!!

www.mdshooters.com

Read here. Short answer is get a holosun eps carry in red or green dot depending on what you prefer. Closed emitters require less maintenance than open emitters. Their use allows you to focus on the threat and NOT the sights. You use muscle memory through lots of drilling to punch the gun out to where you are already looking. The dot superimposes itself on the target.

It's different from iron sights, where you are front sight focused as you manage 3 focal planes(rear sight, front sight, and target). There's only one focal plane at the target when using dots.

 

[E.Shell]

RDS (red (and green) dot sights) are very popular, but I'm not so sure many/most *defensive handgun* shooters are that effective with them.

As Smokey0118 points out, the idea is to focus on the target and present the handgun, and with a properly fitting handgun in a proper grip, the dot should appear on target. Sounds great, in theory...

There are a couple issues commonly encountered, especially by those of us who have many years of rapid iron-sight acquisition, and by those whose handgun is not a perfect fit.

The dot acquisition becomes "binary", in that when the handgun is presented, the dot is either there or it is not. It doesn't take much misalignment for the dot to be out of the window and out of the shooter's field of view. It can take some 'fishing around' to bring the dot into view. Conversely, using iron sights is more of a progression, and any required correction is readily apparent at any stage of the process. When the handgun is drawn, the peripheral vision can begin orienting the sights as the gun comes up and by the time it's on target, we can have both alignment and a sight picture.

One thing to realize immediately is that using a dot on a pistol is NOTHING like using a dot on a rifle. The rifle, with its multiple points of contact with the shooter, literally aligns itself and the dot automatically comes into view . The handgun dot relies entirely on achieving a perfect one-hand grip and presentation, immediately, every time, which is much more challenging.

The two methods most commonly used to overcome this are:
1) intense practice, so that the handgun presentation is consistently on target and the dot always appears in the window, and/or
2) use 'suppressor-height' sights and use the sights to "co-witness" (and find) the dot.

The intense practice thing is very important in any case and can actually help bring dot/target acquisition speeds up to iron-sight speeds. In theory, the dot should be faster, but often is not. One will quickly find out just how naturally their handgun points as soon as the dot is installed, and if the handgun does not point perfectly, the dot will not appear in the window without a lot of searching. Searching is distracting and takes TIME, something we may or may not have.

The "co-witnessing iron sights" method is backwards and useless, in that if you are using the sights to find the dot, you could have already used the sights and been done. No other way to put that... A one-stage method is now two stages and our acquisition time will NEVER equal plain iron-sights if we must use an iron-sight picture to locate the dot.

Using sights to find a dot is an equivalent time-killer to carrying an empty chamber, and after reading the several idiotic threads about carrying a defensive handgun that is not ready to fire ('round in the chamber?' and 'cocked & locked?), I have NO DOUBT there are some here that will strive to combine these two time-losing methods to become totally ineffective and borderline suicidal.

After shooting iron-sighted handguns for 50+ years, I decided to try an RDS on a spare P365XL slide. I got a Holosun 407K GR 6 MOA optic. It has been pointed out that older shooters may have trouble effectively making the transition, and I'm sure that's part of my problem, but that doesn't change the mechanics.

I HAVE been practicing and while I can get the dot on target pretty quickly, I still find myself hunting for it sometimes and while my iron-sight shooting is not as precise as with the dot, irons are still substantially faster for me and I cannot envision depending on a dot for defensive use at this stage in my own learning curve.

What the dot DOES do for me, time issues aside, is vastly improve my precision. The bullets land behind the dot and there is no issue with even minor sight alignment, something that is super-critical with these tiny guns and their very short sight radius. I can accurately make much longer shots and enjoy greater precision at any distance with the dot, but still lack confidence in immediate acquisition. The dot has also been beneficial in dry-fire practice, in that one can immediately see and correct any problems with trigger control and/or grip pressure changes that move the dot off-target while firing.

I got the 6 MOA green dot because I want to be able to see it under any conditions. Some people think 6 MOA = 6", but that is only true at 100 yards, much beyond the scope of compact defensive handgun use. It will appear smaller anywhere closer, usually MUCH smaller. Many people make their usage more challenging by going to a smaller dot, thinking they need the potential precision, but a smaller dot is harder to see and can be easily lost under many lighting conditions. I'd suggest thinking this through and understanding that even a 6 MOA dot is still only .3" at 10 yards - smaller than one 9mm bullet diameter at a distance still greater than most self-defense shoots. It is difficult to imagine a circumstance that a 6 MOA dot on a handgun is too large for the precision necessary for a belly gun, or where one needs an aiming reference smaller than one bullet diameter for effective defense.

My suggestion to the OP is to try a dot sight extensively before committing to carrying a dot. I accomplished this by using the dot on a spare slide. This way, my EDC retains the fast and familiar iron-sight picture, and I can switch off to the optic mounted slide for range use. I am going to do this awhile longer, but unless things become much more seamless, I think my dot sight is going to be a much better asset on one of my hunting handguns.

Sig sells (pricy) spare slide assemblies, some with their 'RomeoZero' series dot already installed. Used ones, like the spare I bought to try this out, are commonly encountered at reasonable cost. Both slide and optic can be easily resold if the exercise doesn't work out. If the dot does work for you, you can always sell off your original slide assembly and keep the dot-equipped slide.

YMMV, of course, and there are many who believe they are faster with a dot, and there are some who actually are, and the only way to really understand one's own situation will be to shoot one awhile.

 

[smokey]

RDS (red (and green) dot sights) are very popular, but I'm not so sure many/most *defensive handgun* shooters are that effective with them.

As Smokey0118 points out, the idea is to focus on the target and present the handgun, and with a properly fitting handgun in a proper grip, the dot should appear on target. Sounds great, in theory...

There are a couple issues commonly encountered, especially by those of us who have many years of rapid iron-sight acquisition, and by those whose handgun is not a perfect fit.

The dot acquisition becomes "binary", in that when the handgun is presented, the dot is either there or it is not. It doesn't take much misalignment for the dot to be out of the window and out of the shooter's field of view. It can take some 'fishing around' to bring the dot into view. Conversely, using iron sights is more of a progression, and any required correction is readily apparent at any stage of the process. When the handgun is drawn, the peripheral vision can begin orienting the sights as the gun comes up and by the time it's on target, we can have both alignment and a sight picture.

One thing to realize immediately is that using a dot on a pistol is NOTHING like using a dot on a rifle. The rifle, with its multiple points of contact with the shooter, literally aligns itself and the dot automatically comes into view . The handgun dot relies entirely on achieving a perfect one-hand grip and presentation, immediately, every time, which is much more challenging.

The two methods most commonly used to overcome this are:
1) intense practice, so that the handgun presentation is consistently on target and the dot always appears in the window, and/or
2) use 'suppressor-height' sights and use the sights to "co-witness" (and find) the dot.

The intense practice thing is very important in any case and can actually help bring dot/target acquisition speeds up to iron-sight speeds. In theory, the dot should be faster, but often is not. One will quickly find out just how naturally their handgun points as soon as the dot is installed, and if the handgun does not point perfectly, the dot will not appear in the window without a lot of searching. Searching is distracting and takes TIME, something we may or may not have.

The "co-witnessing iron sights" method is backwards and useless, in that if you are using the sights to find the dot, you could have already used the sights and been done. No other way to put that... A one-stage method is now two stages and our acquisition time will NEVER equal plain iron-sights if we must use an iron-sight picture to locate the dot.

Using sights to find a dot is an equivalent time-killer to carrying an empty chamber, and after reading the several idiotic threads about carrying a defensive handgun that is not ready to fire ('round in the chamber?' and 'cocked & locked?), I have NO DOUBT there are some here that will strive to combine these two time-losing methods to become totally ineffective and borderline suicidal.

After shooting iron-sighted handguns for 50+ years, I decided to try an RDS on a spare P365XL slide. I got a Holosun 407K GR 6 MOA optic. It has been pointed out that older shooters may have trouble effectively making the transition, and I'm sure that's part of my problem, but that doesn't change the mechanics.

I HAVE been practicing and while I can get the dot on target pretty quickly, I still find myself hunting for it sometimes and while my iron-sight shooting is not as precise as with the dot, irons are still substantially faster for me and I cannot envision depending on a dot for defensive use at this stage in my own learning curve.

What the dot DOES do for me, time issues aside, is vastly improve my precision. The bullets land behind the dot and there is no issue with even minor sight alignment, something that is super-critical with these tiny guns and their very short sight radius. I can accurately make much longer shots and enjoy greater precision at any distance with the dot, but still lack confidence in immediate acquisition. The dot has also been beneficial in dry-fire practice, in that one can immediately see and correct any problems with trigger control and/or grip pressure changes that move the dot off-target while firing.

I got the 6 MOA green dot because I want to be able to see it under any conditions. Some people think 6 MOA = 6", but that is only true at 100 yards, much beyond the scope of compact defensive handgun use. It will appear smaller anywhere closer, usually MUCH smaller. Many people make their usage more challenging by going to a smaller dot, thinking they need the potential precision, but a smaller dot is harder to see and can be easily lost under many lighting conditions. I'd suggest thinking this through and understanding that even a 6 MOA dot is still only .3" at 10 yards - smaller than one 9mm bullet diameter at a distance still greater than most self-defense shoots. It is difficult to imagine a circumstance that a 6 MOA dot on a handgun is too large for the precision necessary for a belly gun, or where one needs an aiming reference smaller than one bullet diameter for effective defense.

My suggestion to the OP is to try a dot sight extensively before committing to carrying a dot. I accomplished this by using the dot on a spare slide. This way, my EDC retains the fast and familiar iron-sight picture, and I can switch off to the optic mounted slide for range use. I am going to do this awhile longer, but unless things become much more seamless, I think my dot sight is going to be a much better asset on one of my hunting handguns.

Sig sells (pricy) spare slide assemblies, some with their 'RomeoZero' series dot already installed. Used ones, like the spare I bought to try this out, are commonly encountered at reasonable cost. Both slide and optic can be easily resold if the exercise doesn't work out. If the dot does work for you, you can always sell off your original slide assembly and keep the dot-equipped slide.

YMMV, of course, and there are many who believe they are faster with a dot, and there are some who actually are, and the only way to really understand one's own situation will be to shoot one awhile.

Holosun HE507K-GR-X2 Compact Pistol Red Dot Sight - Green ACSS® Vulcan® Dot Reticle

DetailsMade as a collaboration between Holosun Optics and Primary Arms Optics, the green-illuminated HE507K-GR-X2 with ACSS® Vulcan® Dot Reticle brings the revolutionary Vulcan aiming system to a micro reflex footprint.Designed for concealed carry, the HE507K-GR-X2-ACSS is lightweight, durable...

www.primaryarms.com

Yup. Ed speaks truth. I will add that primary arms has versions of holosun red/green dots with their acss Vulcan reticle. It's effectively a huge circle around the dot. If you're properly aligned, the dot is in the middle and the circle dissappears. If you're not properly aligned, you'll see part of the circle that you're brain can then use as a reference to correct to the dot.

This might be a good choice for transferring over to red dots, as it gives that progressive feedback ed talked about with irons above, but in a red dot context. It's like red dot training wheels until you train enough to pick it up through proper grip/muscle memory.

It's important to view the switch to red dots as starting over from scratch on a new sighting system that needs its own dedicated drilling/practice for proficiency and not just a quick switch will all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

 

[outrider58]

speaking of eyesite do you have any stigmatisms? I do and having shot iron sights growing up I found the hardware how they distort the dot appearing as starts, smears or double dots as the most usual. In my case a double dot and my optometrist was not able to correct quite enough to make that second dot fade away enough not to be a distraction.

I would have a particular vision malady occur from time to time where I would have double vision. I've been shooting red dots for decades and when the eye problems cropped up, I had to make some adjustments. Mainly, I figured out which dot was the real one and ignore the other dot. As the eye problem would come and go, the double dots would come closer together.
I've been doing a lot of reading on RDSs and astigmatisms(I don't suffer astigmatism) and a general consensus, depending on the severity, RDSs(once learned) are still an overall improvement over iron sights for people with astigmatism.

Me personally, if I am just as quick with a RDS as with irons, I am still much more accurate with the RDS, especially with rapid follow up shots. In truth, I am quicker with the RDS.

 

[ground chuck]

definitely takes some getting used to. Im still working on acquiring the dot from the holster to presentation.

 

[jmcgonig]

definitely takes some getting used to. Im still working on acquiring the dot from the holster to presentation.

This ^^^^. Same choice for me - 365X and put a Holson 507k on it. Like the red dot a lot, but it is taking me time to present it so that the red dot is always visible.

 

[outrider58]

This ^^^^. Same choice for me - 365X and put a Holson 507k on it. Like the red dot a lot, but it is taking me time to present it so that the red dot is always visible.

Generally speaking, most times the dot will be up and out of the window.

 

[E.Shell]

I would have a particular vision malady occur from time to time where I would have double vision. I've been shooting red dots for decades and when the eye problems cropped up, I had to make some adjustments. Mainly, I figured out which dot was the real one and ignore the other dot. As the eye problem would come and go, the double dots would come closer together.
I've been doing a lot of reading on RDSs and astigmatisms(I don't suffer astigmatism) and a general consensus, depending on the severity, RDSs(once learned) are still an overall improvement over iron sights for people with astigmatism.

Me personally, if I am just as quick with a RDS as with irons, I am still much more accurate with the RDS, especially with rapid follow up shots. In truth, I am quicker with the RDS.

I just had eye surgery for both cataracts and astigmatism. The iron sights were blurry, but where I really noticed the astigmatism was with dot sights and an EOTech. Both were fragmented/doubled and it became impossible to shoot a group any smaller than about 6-8" at 100 yards with the EOTech (AR-15 capable of about 2").

Generally speaking, most times the dot will be up and out of the window.

Same here, upper left, just barely out of the window but enough to not be immediately visible.

 

[outrider58]

I just had eye surgery for both cataracts and astigmatism. The iron sights were blurry, but where I really noticed the astigmatism was with dot sights and an EOTech. Both were fragmented/doubled and it became impossible to shoot a group any smaller than about 6-8" at 100 yards with the EOTech (AR-15 capable of about 2").

Same here, upper left, just barely out of the window but enough to not be immediately visible.

How well does the RDS show up on your pistol? Any or much distortion?

Through dry firing and plain old dry gun presentation, I've been able to get the dot showing up almost every time I press the gun out.

When I'm shooting at the range, even when I drive the gun out and the dot doesn't appear instantly, I press the shot knowing it will hit inside the vital zone. Through the recoil, the dot appears for the following shots. Once I have the dot in the window, It never leaves through the shot sequence. I watch the dot go up and down, watching its path. I want to keep its line of travel as perfectly vertical as possible. Inside two vertical lines 3" apart at 6 yards. If the dot stray right or left at its apex, I adjust my hold as I shoot. It's become almost instinct.

 

[E.Shell]

How well does the RDS show up on your pistol? Any or much distortion?

Sights look better than they have in years. With the dot, I have just a small amount of distortion remaining. but so much better it's amazing. I have a bright 'full-moon' for the main image, then an overlapping less-bright doubling that is about 1/4 of the main image in size, up at about 1:30. Like a quarter of a faint moon sticking out from behind a full moon.

Had the first eye done 12-1, the second on 12-15, so barely a month out. I have noticed the glare pattern of headlights at night has been changing and becoming less noticeable, so maybe my dot image will also improve with a little more time.

I had Toric lenses installed, different in each eye. Master/right eye for pistol sight distance, left eye for distant vision so I can see targets.

 

[Biggfoot44]

By all means . read everything E. Shell posted.

Simplified check list :

Does your lifestyle include coke bottle glasses or white canes ? Plus for Dots

Do you have astigmatism ? Minus for Dots

Are you already reasonably competent with making reasonably fast presentations and reasonably decent first shot hits with regular sights ?

If No , no reason not to initially lean with Dots , if so inclined .

If Yes , a long road to UNlearn what you already do by muscle memory , and Relearning a less forgiving system .

 

[tallen702]

A big "Thank You!" to everyone who contributed to this thread. Everyone provided very insightful info and I really appreciate it! I'm not a big pistol shooter. I was when I had one of the Imbel-made bare-bones 1911s from Springfield back in 2001 and .45ACP was relatively inexpensive, but after I (stupidly) sold that particular handgun back in the '11 or '12, I've not spent as much time with pistols as I have with shotguns and rifles. I'm fairly decent at reasonable range with my PA-63, but that's a completely different animal than this Sig. So, relearning muscle memory for this particular pistol isn't going to be an issue as I'm just starting to develop that in this case.

I do have astigmatism, but wear toric contacts to correct it. I'll (hopefully) be getting wave-LASIK next year. I have shot a friend's Glock with a red dot and didn't have any issue with the dot doubling as some of you have described, so hopefully, that's not an issue here.

I decided to go with the Holosun 507k with a green dot. The fact it has two reticles (dot and ring) makes sense to me and I look forward to it getting here so I can start with dry-fire practice to get into the groove of obtaining that sight picture without thinking.

Thanks again to all of you! This kind of stuff is what makes MDS an indispensable resource for everyone.

Edit: So, I found the 507C at a great price and liked some of the features even more (shake-awake and solar failsafe) and it was $60 less than MSRP from Holosun and got me a $35 gift card, so I wound up going with that instead of the 507k.

Again, thanks everyone for your input!

Edit #2: Just realized that means I need an adapter plate. Oh well..... Doh!

 

[goneracin]

I joined this forum from a drag racing forum due to this thread being linked there.lol
I have an M&P with a 407k2 on it
ive shot it a lot in daylight no problem
an interesting thing happened today
the sun was behind me and very bright. Not dot at presentation
Went into some shade and its fine
go back into the sun and its not there
The suns angle was apparently just right that it overpowered the dot
Figured that was a good time to practice dotless presentation and shooting, just to see how that went
all hits were center mass no problem, but it is making me rethink the carry optic some