Rifle stance (especially using an AR)

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  • hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,503
    That certainly makes sense.

    I'm concerned that a few Youtubers have seen this and now people are doing it in situations where it is not applicable or effective. It spreads virally and now everyone thinks it's the right thing to do. I'm also curious as to what is the "right way" to take this stance. Just because you observe it on Youtube doesn't mean that you'll replicate it correctly even if the Youtuber is doing it correctly.
    It's easy to learn how to so a lot of things incorrectly on YouTube, from shooting to changing your oil in your car.

    If training on the carbine is what you want, Green Ops in Virginia does both closer range classes (100 yds and under) and their variable optic classes can have you stretch its legs out much further. Justified Defensive Concepts would be another option in NoVA.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,467
    Fairfax, VA
    Oh sorry I didn't understand that the CMP matches were your primary concern. Didn't know slings weren't allowed. Do you know why that is?
    As far as I know, hasty or loop slings have never been used in high power competition for offhand. At least for the US, period photos of the Camp Perry firing line from a century ago do not show sling use in offhand.
     

    King Chicken

    I identify as King/Emperor
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 24, 2022
    1,624
    Land Full of Marys - MoCo
    As far as I know, hasty or loop slings have never been used in high power competition for offhand. At least for the US, period photos of the Camp Perry firing line from a century ago do not show sling use in offhand.
    Buhhh why?! Why must we persecute them so? I am relatively new to the world of sport shooting.

    Ty for the historical reference btw. Very cool.
     

    Pale Ryder

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 12, 2009
    6,178
    Millersville
    Maybe I’m missing something too. Modern technique is used with light recoiling carbines. Try that pectoral buttstock hold on something like a 375 H&H. Ouch.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,240
    Maybe I’m missing something too. Modern technique is used with light recoiling carbines. Try that pectoral buttstock hold on something like a 375 H&H. Ouch.
    It's damned near the same hold used for clay games with 12 gauges.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,240
    That's what I have the most experience with, in and out of the military. I participate in CMP matches. I'd like to see matches get with the times. I know there's a club up in Thurmont that does something much more dynamic. That's a couple of hours away from me. Difficult to do regularly.
    Here's me a while ago shooting 3-gun at thurmont. It's pretty fun. Pardon me sucking with the handgun. I was using my m&p9 compact with a new fiber optic front sight and kept pushing shots low.



    If you haven't tried it before, it's a fun challenge. It also quickly makes you appreciate the advantages a rifle has over both shotguns and handguns.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,835
    Rockville, MD
    If you want to learn to run and gun with a rifle, this book is a good start: Amazon product ASIN B0BKRX2WF1
    Otherwise, yeah, take a class or two, and you'll learn a lot. Frankly, there's a lot of nuance to how you shoot, much of it situational. Ben Stoeger in his book promotes a slightly different style with a carbine than Mike Green did when I was learning from him. Neither of them is wrong, it's more like they're trying to accomplish different things in different contexts and it bleeds over to what they teach. I don't draw a pistol precisely the way Mike Green and Brett Harnish taught me, either - but I certainly understand why they taught me that method, and I still use it when it makes sense.

    Just to respond to the OP: when I'm running and gunning, I'm using that rifle for roughly one minute at a time (hopefully much less). I can muscle through that. If you are standing on the static range and plinking for 30 minutes until the next cease-fire, what I do for multigun or falling steel or whatever is not going to work in that context. For practical shooting purposes, I don't need to hold a rifle unsupported on target for ten to twenty minutes straight.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,467
    Fairfax, VA
    Buhhh why?! Why must we persecute them so? I am relatively new to the world of sport shooting.

    Ty for the historical reference btw. Very cool.
    Hasty sling is not really a practical way to shoot a twenty round slow fire stage since it involves muscling the rifle onto target. The competition stance involving building a NPOA with a combination of bone support and gravity is not particularly tiring and is easy enough to do consistently within the allotted time and while waiting for the pit to return the target and the scorer to score.

    I have no idea how it actually got to be prohibited though. If it really were inferior, might as well let people figure that out on their own.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,195
    maryland
    If you think no slings is crazy, CMP matches make you single load semi-automatic rifles for the slow prone and standing unsupported positions. No enbloc clips or magazines except for rapid fire portions.
    .....and they wonder why 2gun matches fill but theirs dont.....
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,835
    Rockville, MD
    .....and they wonder why 2gun matches fill but theirs dont.....
    I sorta admire the High power guys, they actually have to learn to shoot accurately. A lot of multigun and (especially) PCSL matches are "close" range, big target affairs.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,195
    maryland
    I sorta admire the High power guys, they actually have to learn to shoot accurately. A lot of multigun and (especially) PCSL matches are "close" range, big target affairs.
    ....I prefer 2gun matches with targets at least 300yd out. I shot high power, f class, and Palma. F class was the best of the three. Palma was cool but I no longer have perfect vision. High power seemed to drag a lot more than the others. Could still be a good day.

    A good MD can design a practical match that the "faster blaster" guys will not have a significant advantage in. Requiring two Alphas is a good start, adding bczone plates out at 200plus is another move. Seen 3gun guys with JPs and hoser ammo shoot off a whole mag trying to get their hits on steel and some guy with a 14.5 duty rifle go one for one because he knows his shit and has decent ammo.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,434
    Learn both since they’re each appropriate in different scenarios.

    * Semantics Warning *

    Actually that would be All Three .

    Small bore completion " standing " , with maximum bone support .

    Traditional Offhand

    New Wave Offhand , with exaggerated support arm extension, etc .
     

    slsc98

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2012
    6,618
    Escaped MD-stan to WNC Smokies
    The key thing that I was taught in the military is build your shooting position using bone. Bone doesn't get tired. Muscle builds lactic acid, gets tired and shaky.

    I keep seeing modern AR/M-series shooters using an unsupported/offhand stance while standing or moving forward where the supporting arm (on the handguard) is extended far forward, grasping the foregrip much closer to the end of the barrel than I'm used to doing. I've seen it done with and without the add-on, T foregrip.

    This is totally counterintuitive to me because it appears that the supporting arm is using all muscle to stabilize the rifle, which would be shaky after a period of time. What am I missing here? What's the technique? Why is this the preferred stance now?

    I'd appreciate your insights.

    As mentioned upthread It’s all about your objective or situation / circumstances. Lotsa different cats to be skinned so …

    Lucky for you, this young lady gets right to your answer from the 0.22 second mark to the 0.36 second mark:
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,195
    maryland
    I wondered why the first time I went to the Eastern games at Butner, the line for registration was 3000 feet long.
    Maybe they were there just for the hell of it or the semi truckloads of ammo IDK.
    Guess it dropped off a lot since then who knows.
    Or could be they ran out of ammo
    I've shot at Perry. Yeah it's a big line. Ive been to butner but it was with a buddy at a mid range benchrest match. But regional or national match vs local. I shot a local 2gun that sold out well before the match. Every match. The competition for the finale in PRS nationally, or the Guardian or quantified performance series, is very stiff.
    Because it's more difficult , and requires more skill ? :)
    Possible. Having shot both types of match, I would say that they require different skills. The gear is very different and the scoring is time based in most action sports. 2gunners would shoot lousy scores in high power. The high power shooters would probably DQ in a 2gun or DMR. Or they'd go out of par.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    I've shot at Perry. Yeah it's a big line. Ive been to butner but it was with a buddy at a mid range benchrest match. But regional or national match vs local. I shot a local 2gun that sold out well before the match. Every match. The competition for the finale in PRS nationally, or the Guardian or quantified performance series, is very stiff.
    So you dont think it was just the ammo?
     

    Ponder_MD

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2020
    4,400
    Maryland
    As mentioned upthread It’s all about your objective or situation / circumstances. Lotsa different cats to be skinned so …

    Lucky for you, this young lady gets right to your answer from the 0.22 second mark to the 0.36 second mark:

    There was a lot of information in that short video. Man, I'm so out of date.
     

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