Regulated firearms -no paperwork

[Kf3cw]

I have given my son an Ar-15 (Colt Preban) and a Custom SA 45. These are definitely "clean" but I purchased/traded for them and have no paper work. My son has a job with high clearances and feels that under the MD law there would be a real issue if he were to be pulled over and asked for ownership paperwork, etc. if he were going to/from AGC or any other range. I was advised that he should " voluntarily" register his firearms, others have told me he doesn't have to do anything. He has a great fear of possibly losing all of his firearms and more of a concern of losing his clearances and then his job. Please any other advice,recommendations to be legal in this wonderful state we live in. Thanks Help??

 

[swinokur]

MD SC ruling allows loans of firearms. Perhaps that's a better route for you. Ruling attached.

 

[Markp]

First things first, what is the state of residency for each of you...

Both currently and at the time of the "loan" or "transfer" (You can characterize what you did after you think about the implications).

Assuming that you were both residents of the same state at the time of a "transfer" and that state was NOT Maryland. Then it will depend somewhat on the state that we are discussing, if it's a free state (like Texas), then it doesn't matter... if it's somewhere crazy like NJ, you might have a problem.

Most states do not have restrictions on loaned firearms, and even federal law is relatively silent on interstate loans. I worry that you would have to show intent to return the weapon to it's owner, especially if the other party had it for a long period of time.

If he was a resident of a state that is not the state that you are a resident of, a "transfer" would be illegal without the use of an FFL (although there are lots of nuances here and it's not all that straight forward).

I am assuming you are not a MD resident because of how you purchased the weapons, and I assume that he may be military which could have very important implications with regard to his residency. If you are an MD resident and were an MD resident at the time of the purchase (post 96, in the case of the rifle) and if you subsequently "transferred" them to your son without paperwork, it is likely that both transfers are illegal, you would only be legally able to loan the firearm to him to the best of my knowledge.

I'm active duty military, so I know some of the issues. I don't recommend getting too specific on a public forum, but we do have some lawyers on the board who can advise you and him on how to best proceed, that would be my recommendation.

 

[Kf3cw]

Thanks. The problem I have with that is if I were to take these firearms to the range,I would have the same problem. I have no paperwork. What would happen ??

 

[Kf3cw]

We are both residents of MD

 

[Inigoes]

Thanks. The problem I have with that is if I were to take these firearms to the range,I would have the same problem. I have no paperwork. What would happen ??

Paperwork saying you own them?

Currently, there is no such requirement or law.

I could see the son wonder about the origins of the firearms, a serial number trace might not be a bad idea.

 

[Markp]

Thanks. The problem I have with that is if I were to take these firearms to the range,I would have the same problem. I have no paperwork. What would happen ??

You only have to worry if

A. You purchased them illegally

and

B. if the "authorities" could prove it.

Like noted above, there is no law requiring you to have paperwork for these weapons, HOWEVER, let's play the hypothetical scenario game.

Let's say that since 1960 you've been a Maryland resident and no evidence of you being a resident of another state exists.

Let's also pretend that the "pre-ban" AR-15 or Springfield handgun was lawfully transferred by an FFL in 1996 or later to a Maryland resident as a regulated firearm and a record of that transaction exists in the MSP files.

Now you purchase or otherwise acquire these weapons a few years later (say 1999) without any paperwork and with no evidence that they were transferred in accordance to law. You could be charged and pretty easily convicted of a violation of federal and/or state laws regarding the transfer of firearms. As a Maryland resident you could be subject to the following:

A Federal prison sentence of up to 5 years or even 10 years
A Federal fine of up to $250,000 (IIRC)
A State prison sentence of up to 5 years
A State fine of up to $10,000

Or any combination to include all of the above for EACH violation. So it's important to figure out where you stand legally. It could be necessary to either have the original owner transfer the weapons to you, or you might even need to destroy the firearm frames and receivers in order to not remain in violation of the law. This is really a question for a lawyer and not me.

Alternatively, you may have purchased these before Maryland regulated handgun and "assault weapon" sales from another Maryland resident, in which case, you would not have to do anything nor would you need to show any paperwork. The state would be unable to prove when you purchased it and you would not be guilty of any state or federal crime, nor would it be worth attempting to prove.

Mark

 

[DCSCO]

Write your son a bill of sale or gift statement.

 

[dblas]

Thanks. The problem I have with that is if I were to take these firearms to the range,I would have the same problem. I have no paperwork. What would happen ??

There is no requirement for proof of ownership currently and there isn't one written into SB281. This isn't East Germany and you do not need "papers" to go to the range, nor will you need them after October 1.

If, however, your sone is concerned about his security clearance, he can go to any MSP barracks and fill out a 77R and voluntarily register them. If he does this, the MSP does not ask for the history of the firearm or proof of ownership. They will, however, run the serial numbers to ensure they are not stolen.

Hope this helps.

73 de,
KA8YPY

 

[Merlin]

I have given my son an Ar-15 (Colt Preban) and a Custom SA 45. These are definitely "clean" but I purchased/traded for them and have no paper work. My son has a job with high clearances and feels that under the MD law there would be a real issue if he were to be pulled over and asked for ownership paperwork, etc. if he were going to/from AGC or any other range. I was advised that he should " voluntarily" register his firearms, others have told me he doesn't have to do anything. He has a great fear of possibly losing all of his firearms and more of a concern of losing his clearances and then his job. Please any other advice,recommendations to be legal in this wonderful state we live in. Thanks Help??

and who's to say that he did not buy them from a friend of a friend that knew a guy 18 years ago before the law changed?

 

[Merlin]

Let's also pretend that the "pre-ban" AR-15 or Springfield handgun was lawfully transferred by an FFL in 1996 or later to a Maryland resident as a regulated firearm and a record of that transaction exists in the MSP files.
Mark

Is 1996 when the law started on the books that required any private sale of a regulated gun go through an FFL or the MSP?

 

[Merlin]

Thanks. The problem I have with that is if I were to take these firearms to the range,I would have the same problem. I have no paperwork. What would happen ??

Well, if your a bad shot you will not hit the target when at the range. Other then that, nothing.

 

[dblas]

Is 1996 when the law started on the books that required any private sale of a regulated gun go through an FFL or the MSP?

I believe so yes, I will have to do some check to be 100% sure.

 

[OldLawman]

And why would he be stopped/pulled over ? Under what circumstances does he transport them to and from the range - thrown loose in the back seat ? Of course not (I hope !)
In a case, in the trunk, unloaded. And never, ever agree voluntarily to a search of the vehicle. He is also under no legal obligation to answer any questions about whether he has guns in the car. And should never volunteer that information if stopped. Why would he ?

 

[Merlin]

And why would he be stopped/pulled over ? Under what circumstances does he transport them to and from the range - thrown loose in the back seat ? Of course not (I hope !)
In a case, in the trunk, unloaded. And never, ever agree voluntarily to a search of the vehicle. He is also under no legal obligation to answer any questions about whether he has guns in the car. And should never volunteer that information if stopped. Why would he ?

Well they meant what if they were riding around with the unloaded regulated guns and they decided to through the gun at someone getting ready to vacation in England, and that person were to take the gun with them and turn the gun into Interpol. And then Interpol were to contact the FBI that in turn contacted the local LEO's in the area where the gun was thrown from the car, and the local LEO's will put out an all points bulletin to be on the look out for someone throwing unloaded guns out of cars. And it happened that there was a LEO eating lunch at the same lunch counter where two guys named Ted were talking about this guy they new that likes to throw unloaded gun out of the windows of his car at people getting ready to go on vacation.

And if it got traced back to them, just how would they explain it?

 

[Kf3cw]

Regulated firearms-no paperwork

Thanks to all. I see this issue is both complex and could result in many scenarios or none. I think the "voluntary" registration route is the one Iii pursue. But I appreciate the input from everybody.