Question about black powder guns.

[Jackalope]

I know you can just order them on line, they're shipped to your door and all you have to prove is you're over 18. I also know that the ATF does not consider a black powder gun to be a firearm and have read all over the place that even in this gun grabbing state a blackpowder gun is not considered a firearm....or is it?

Does anyone know if the U.S. v. GREEN has been overturned? http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/us_v_green.txt

WAY WAY back in 1981 this was argued here in MD and it seems that MD DOES consider a cap and ball blackpowder revolver to be a firearm even tho the ATF testified they do NOT consider it to be a firearm.

Adding MORE confusion is the MSP themselves who state.... No, per federal law statutes, this type of firearm is considered an antique and does not qualify under the regulated firearm guidelines. http://www.mdgunsafety.com/mspfaq.htm

Every thing I can find points to blackpowder guns NOT being considered firearms EXCEPT the U.S. v. GREEN case from back in 1981.

Well which is it? It seems to me the state is picking and choosing when a blackpowder gun is a firearm and was hoping maybe someone here could shed some light on this and clear it up for me.

Why I ask is it turns out an 18 year old misdimeanor conviction of mine had its max sentence increased to 3 years or $10,000 and even tho back then I could legally own a firearm it seems now I can not. Make 1 stupid mistake 18 years ago and back then it was "no big deal" according to my lawyer, the DA, and the courts but NOW is a big enough deal to warrant a whole new world of legal troubles for me and my family. Once this is behind me we're moving out of state, we can't take the BS here in MD anymore.

 

[Jackalope]

Then the NRA has this on its site about blackpowder in MD....ANTIQUES
An antique firearm is defined as a firearm manufactured before 1899, or any replica thereof, which is not designed for firing fixed ammunition or which uses fixed ammunition and is no longer manufactured in the United States or readily available commercially. Antique firearms are exempt from state law.

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/maryland.aspx

 

[Jackalope]

And the MSP list the conversion version of the gun I want but not the black powder version in there handgun list. Does this mean its not a handgun?

http://www.mdsp.org/Organization/SupportServicesBureau/LicensingDivision/HandgunRoster.aspx

 

[Jackalope]

Any one?

 

[Johnthetoolguy]

I ordered this on line and got it in less than a week from Cabela's to my door. It was a Christmas present to myself. 1858 Remington.

 

[Jackalope]

Similar to the one I'm looking at but with the 8 inch barrel. Nice, how do you like it?

 

[MotoJ]

The Remingtons are nice shooters, and they take down much easier than the Colts, that have that wedge.

Replicas are considered Antiques under MD law. They don't require NICS check during in person sales. They are mail-orderable to most states, including MD (for the time being). I've bought several from Dixie Gun Works and had them delivered to my door.

I think if you got pulled over and the LEO found a loaded cap and ball under the seat of your car you'd be in trouble for concealed dangerous weapon, which is illegal- same as a long bladed knife, blackjack, brass knuckles, etc.

There seems to be more to your story though- are you being jacked up for buying one for some reason?

 

[Jackalope]

MotoJ, no, no problems but I'm trying to head any off before they may arise. Everything I can find says they are ok for anyone to own but I found that 1 lone link that has got me wondering. I just do not want any problems should I buy one of these.

 

[John from MD]

No worry with BP firearms here in Maryland. It is perfectly legal to buy them through the mail or at a store with no paperwork.

I have been shooting BP for 50 years both hunting and target shooting. The unique thing about BP muzzle loaders is that they are not considered loaded until they are capped. When hunting with long guns, we only remove the caps, throw the gun in the truck, and go to another spot. Can't do that with a cartridge gun.

John

 

[MotoJ]

MotoJ, no, no problems but I'm trying to head any off before they may arise. Everything I can find says they are ok for anyone to own but I found that 1 lone link that has got me wondering. I just do not want any problems should I buy one of these.

No lawyer here, but I think that you'd be OK. If a LEO ran your ID and saw the misdemeanor I wouldn't think that would raise a flag- I think they'd be looking for a felony. If the penalties for your misdemeanor were increased after you were sentenced, but were 1 year or less at the time, I think you'd be OK in a court case anyhow. Might want to look into expungement though. 18 years is a long time ago.

 

[Clovis]

MotoJ, no, no problems but I'm trying to head any off before they may arise. Everything I can find says they are ok for anyone to own but I found that 1 lone link that has got me wondering. I just do not want any problems should I buy one of these.

I wasn't going to do this but, I think before you do anything gun related, whether it is a black powder gun or not, your really NEED TO TALK TO/HIRE A LAWYER!!

With what you have described in this thread and another you could be in more trouble perhaps even being near a gun. I understand where you're coming from, but before you purchase anything make sure you are legally able to do so and don't cause yourself more problems.

Make sure it is a good lawyer as well, and I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong. Good luck.

 

[ThatIsAFact]

federal law has changed since the Green case

You asked about U.S. v. Green. In that 1981 case, Green had been indicted under 18 U.S.C. App. §1202a, a federal statute that prohibited a person with a felony conviction from possessing a "firearm." The definitions of "firearm" and "handgun" directly applicable to this law clearly covered muzzle loaders. The ATF testified that the agency nevertheless construed the law as not applying to anything that fell within then-current federal definition of "antique" in another statute, which excluded guns that could not fire fixed ammunition. In other words, the ATF interpretation supported Green's position. But the judge rejected the ATF position, essentially on grounds that Congress had written what Congress had written, even if it was inconsistent, and sustained Green's conviction.

It is important to know, however, that 18 U.S.C. App. §1202a was later repealed. The currently operative felon-possession statute is 18 U.S.C. §922(g), which is governed by a definition of "firearm" in 18 U.S.C. §921, and it states that the term "does not include an antique firearm." So, then, what is an "antique firearm" in federal law? There are three different classes of guns falls within the current federal definition of "antique," the third being as follows:

any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. ​

So, a black powder muzzle loader is not a prohibited "firearm" in the federal law. If somebody can find some case or interpretation to the contrary, since the federal law was amended, it would be of great interest to me and I'm sure to Jackalope as well.

Maryland law is more complicated. The Maryland definition of "antique," found at Criminal Law Article §4-201, was apparently copied from an older, shorter version of the federal definition. It reads:

(b) Antique firearm. -- "Antique firearm" means:

(1) a firearm, including a firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system, manufactured before 1899;

or

(2) a replica of a firearm described in item (1) of this subsection that: (i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
​

So you see, the Maryland definition contains no reference to muzzleloading capacity, nor any reference to any kind of gun powder. However, the definition would apply to a "replica" of a pre-1899 firearm that does not use fixed ammunition, which would cover many black powder guns, but perhaps not all.

If the gun falls within the Maryland definition of "antique" then it is not regulated for transfer purposes. However, there are several other Maryland statutes that explicitly do cover antique guns for the purpose of penalties that apply to use of a "firearm" in certain crimes. For example, Criminal Law Article §4-204 makes it a separate crime to use a "firearm" in the commission of "a crime of violence," and explicitly says that "firearm" (for the purpose of this particular statute) "includes an antique firearm, handgun, rifle, shotgun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, starter gun, or any other firearm, whether loaded or unloaded." The penalty is 5 to 20 years per offense.

I hope this helps. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. I concur with Clovis, who suggested that you should consult a lawyer expert in Maryland firearms law.

 

[Jackalope]

Clovis, already have one and plan to ask him next time we meet.

ThatIsAFact, thank you very much for this information I will pass it along to my attorney and have him use it as a starting point for his research. Please note I do not plan to use a BP gun in any crime, I have several friends who I would go target shooting with and would like to be able to continue to.

MotoJ, A pardon is something I am looking into with my attorney.

 

[Clovis]

Glad to hear you have a lawyer. Guess I was only trying to say what I would do if I was in your position. Think I would ask alot of questions and listen carefully and get started on expungement.

 

[budman93]

I ordered this on line and got it in less than a week from Cabela's to my door. It was a Christmas present to myself. 1858 Remington.

Is that a pietta? I've heard mixed reviews on them. How is yours?

 

[John from MD]

"Is that a pietta? I've heard mixed reviews on them. How is yours? "

I have been shooting Italian BP guns since Val Forgett got the Italians to start making them. In the earlier days, quality was spotty at best. As time went by, Pedersoli became the best, and most expensive, of the Italian firms. Uberti quality was for a time, better than Pietta. In recent years, I believe that Pietta has surpassed Uberti especially in having standard dimensions. You won't go wrong with a Calbela's Pietta, especially if you get them on sale.

Cabela's runs sales every quarter on different BP guns. All you have to do is wait and you will eventually get a cheaper price on the gun you want.

I'm a Colt person as the Colt grip style fits my hand better. The nice thing about the Remmy though, is that you can pack it full of powder and use it as a hunting sidearm.

Good shooting,

John

 

[Johnthetoolguy]

Is that a pietta? I've heard mixed reviews on them. How is yours?

Oh, sorry. Just looked back at this thread.
Yes it is. I have not shot it yet so I can't tell you about performance.
I have other BP guns but have not shot any of them in years.