Optical Education

[Rebel]

[/COLOR]

Hi Everyone,

I recently purchased a custom 6.5mm Grendel rifle with a 20" barrel. I'm in the process of purchasing optics for it and I need a serious education. I intend to use the scope for long range shooting/hunting.

My questions are:

1. Please explain the benefits of the different reticles. What system is the over all best. Is DOA aactually a working system?

2. Are there any FFP scopes with a higher value than 25X50 for less than $1300 that are worth the money?

3. Are there any local ranges that are 400 yards or more? I live in Howard County.

4. Do any of these ranges or companies that you know of offer distance shooting traing?


Please forgive the placement of this post if this is the wrong location and I thank you for your time and replies in advance.

 

[E.Shell]

Welcome to the forum.

....
My questions are:

1. Please explain the benefits of the different reticles. What system is the over all best.

How will you use it? Ranging? Holdovers? Thick cover? How far is "long range" to you?

Is DOA aactually a working system?

For normal hunting distances, they are workable. For true long range (your Grendell, if capable of the initial accuracy, will shoot to 1k or better with the right ammo), no. The DOA shares the same limitations as any bullet drop compensating reticle: 1) It may or may not match your load as exactly as we might wish for. 2) Air density changes make fixed drop systems imprecise beyond 600 or so, but Bushnell doesn't claim to go beyond that anyway.

2. Are there any FFP scopes with a higher value than 25X50 for less than $1300 that are worth the money?

I'm not aware of any...having that kind of a magnification in a quality scope AND first focal plane sorta limits the price floor.

3. Are there any local ranges that are 400 yards or more? I live in Howard County.

Mayberry (Westminster) goes to 600 and hosts tactical/precision matches several times a year. PeacemakerInternational is in WV and IIRC they can shoot to 1,200 yards. Otherwise, I'm not aware of any.

4. Do any of these ranges or companies that you know of offer distance shooting traing?

Peacemaker offers long range introductory classes from time to time. Several of us in the Industry Partner section of this forum provide long range and/or precision rifle training.

Good luck!

 

[BradMacc82]

Yoda (E.Shell) has spoken.

 

[Boom Boom]

Just some general comments since this is your first post, it's not clear what experience you have with high-power scopes, and to help other folks with responding to your questions.

Within reason, different reticles on high-quality, high-power scopes are as much an issue of preference as benefit, provided that the ones in question provide a straightforward means of drop estimation. An exception might be if you've got specialized training and want to maintain the same reticle and adjustments (mil-dot, mil).

Equally important is brightness and quality of the glass at high power. If you're out hunting on an overcast day at long distances, the best reticle you can imagine, even if illuminated, doesn't help if you're looking through the scope at a fuzzy or dark image. Also, 25x is a lot of magnification and needs a stable shooting platform, meaning it's not offhand-shooting friendly.

FFP is a no-brainer if your budget allows. Vortex has FFP options within your budget. Otherwise Leupold Mark 4 if you can expand your budget to about $1,700.

 

[Rebel]

Ed, thanks for responding.

Welcome to the forum. How will you use it? Ranging? Holdovers? Thick cover? How far is "long range" to you?

All of the above. I would like to invest as much time as it takes to become an expert marksman, I want to learn the techniques to be able to shoot on all terrains in all possible scenarios. I would eventually want to compete in 1k or more competitions. 1k seems pretty far to me right now. In short I want to develop the techniques that will enable me to use the full capabilities of this rifle.


Peacemaker offers long range introductory classes from time to time. Several of us in the Industry Partner section of this forum provide long range and/or precision rifle training.

I would be very grateful for any type of precision training. If you're Yoda then I'm you're Padawan learner.

Lastly, it appears that my budget for optics is seriously underfunded and my intended desire vague....

Can you suggest for me a high powered FFP scope that will provide excellent light and clarity down range to at least 1k? Also this scope needs to have reticles that can be used in a proven training system that will allow me to guage/estimate range and make small enough adjustments for good precision work.

I have read that some of the members have discounts on vortex gear, what do you think of the Razor?

 

[Rebel]

Boom Boom,

Thanks for responding

Just some general comments since this is your first post, it's not clear what experience you have with high-power scopes, and to help other folks with responding to your questions.

I have zero experience with high-powered scopes.

Within reason, different reticles on high-quality, high-power scopes are as much an issue of preference as benefit, provided that the ones in question provide a straightforward means of drop estimation. An exception might be if you've got specialized training and want to maintain the same reticle and adjustments (mil-dot, mil).

Luckily for me I suppose I have no preference, no basis for comparison. I am in search of your experience to aide me in making a good decision.

Equally important is brightness and quality of the glass at high power. If you're out hunting on an overcast day at long distances, the best reticle you can imagine, even if illuminated, doesn't help if you're looking through the scope at a fuzzy or dark image. Also, 25x is a lot of magnification and needs a stable shooting platform, meaning it's not offhand-shooting friendly.

This is exactly what I mean this knowledge base will help me avoid wasting money on things I will have to replace. I need to know if TMR or mildot or turrets or any other system provides the best opportunity for precision shooting at various distances.

FFP is a no-brainer if your budget allows. Vortex has FFP options within your budget. Otherwise Leupold Mark 4 if you can expand your budget to about $1,700.

It appears that my budget for optics is seriously underfunded and my intended desire vague....

Can you suggest for me a high powered FFP scope that will provide excellent light and clarity down range to at least 1k? Also this scope needs to have reticles that can be used in a proven training system that will allow me to guage/estimate range and make small enough adjustments for good precision work.

I have read that some of the members have discounts on vortex gear, what do you think of the Razor?

Lastly leupold makes several Mark 4s with varying recticles, which would you specifically endorse?


Thanks for your time.

 

[E.Shell]

...Within reason, different reticles on high-quality, high-power scopes are as much an issue of preference as benefit, provided that the ones in question provide a straightforward means of drop estimation. An exception might be if you've got specialized training and want to maintain the same reticle and adjustments (mil-dot, mil).

I'd agree.

For one thing, a decision has to be made whether a BDC reticle is required, or a more universal mil/MOA reticle is appropriate.

Mil or MOA scope reticles provide calibrated intervals between reticle features and these reticles can be used for ranging and holdovers. The holdover distances may or may not exactly correspond to a given reticle feature.

ETA: Holdovers are possible with a mil or MOA reticle, and it's quite easy to generate a chart/diagram of the mil/MOA reticle ands show bullet impact points at various ranges, such as this:

A BDC scope is probably going to be pretty close to any specified trajectory, but the reticle features are on non-linear intervals that track the ever-increasing drop rate of the bullet only and generally cannot be used to measure range.

Even making this decision still leads to a personal preference issue, or perhaps availability within a given price range. Provided the features are of equivalent resolution, Mils and MOA are equally useful for ranging targets of known size. There are many BDC reticles on the market and they all have pretty much the same benefits and disadvantages.

Equally important is brightness and quality of the glass at high power. If you're out hunting on an overcast day at long distances, the best reticle you can imagine, even if illuminated, doesn't help if you're looking through the scope at a fuzzy or dark image.

True, and this is what leads me to say above that I don't know of any scopes I'd be satisfied with in the required price range, and even the rather expensive Leupold 8.5-25x50 is a turd not ideal.

Also, 25x is a lot of magnification and needs a stable shooting platform, meaning it's not offhand-shooting friendly.

I had the impression we were discussing variables ("FFP") with a max magnification of 25x or so, which is really at the bottom end of too much power to hunt and sometimes too much power for target work when haze or mirage is bad. I would not be happy in the woods with a minimum power of 8x +/-, and really prefer something that dials down to 3x or 4x, which also serves to limit max magnification (due to limits on zoom ratio). I have hunted a Leupold 6.5-20x50 and the crosshairs go away pretty quickly when light starts to fade. My 2-7x32 with the heavy duplex is a much better tool for the woods and "deer time".

FFP is a no-brainer if your budget allows.

I'm not convinced, and I have several of both styles. The crosshair gets pretty small when we dial down for low light, thus becoming less visible when we need it most. For hunting, I prefer a SFP so the reticle stays bold when I dial down for better light transmission or close range action in the laurel thickets. For match/target/ranging, then yes, an FFP has it's advantages.

Vortex has FFP options within your budget.

Thanks. I have had a few Vortex scopes through classes here and they work fine considering the price range, but I didn't realize they were FFP.

Otherwise Leupold Mark 4 if you can expand your budget to about $1,700.

I'd say about the same thing if the budget has any flexibility. For a hunting rifle that is occasionally used for long range, a. MK4 4.5-14x50 is a great scope. For a target rifle that is occasionally used for hunting, I'd select the same scope. The 6.5-20x is a bit much for the woods and their 8.5-25x has a terrible problem with eye relief. If someone gave me one (Leupold 8.5-25x), I'd immediately sell it and buy a decent scope.

The 8.5-25x, set at 8.5x has a rather long eye relief and the head must be placed pretty far back. When we go to maximum magnification, the eye relief becomes so short, one cannot see through the scope at all from the same head position at all magnifications.

Ed, thanks for responding.

I would be very grateful for any type of precision training. If you're Yoda then I'm you're Padawan learner.

You're welcome and if you wish to discuss training, please send a PM and we'll discuss your requirements.

Lastly, it appears that my budget for optics is seriously underfunded and my intended desire vague....

Can you suggest for me a high powered FFP scope that will provide excellent light and clarity down range to at least 1k? Also this scope needs to have reticles that can be used in a proven training system that will allow me to guage/estimate range and make small enough adjustments for good precision work.

I have read that some of the members have discounts on vortex gear, what do you think of the Razor?

There is a visible difference in image quality between Leupold and the next step down. Increasing magnification requirements to 25x makes finding a scope of decent quality at low cost rather difficult.

In my opinion, there has to be a decision made as to priority. An ideal hunting scope is not an ideal long range precision scope.

Many competitors shoot with lower magnifications, even as low as 10x, and it all depends on the target size. Hunting with an overpowered scope leads to frustration and declined/lost opportunities because the light levels are too low or field of view too small can be maddening. The more experienced one is with optics, and the better the rifle fits, the easier it is to hunt a big scope, but it is still not as nice as throwing up a 4x with a heavy duplex at dusk or dawn. I've been doing this stuff for more than 45 years and my own dedicated hunting rifles typically sport 2-7x32s, 2.5-8x32s or 3.5-10x40s.

If I had to go double duty with one rifle/optic, I'd consider max magnification of 14x or 15x about minimum for good target work and about maximum for effective field work.

 

[Captnstabn]

From someone who lurks alot, thanks for posting ed... Your input is really valuable.