NM governor suspends open & concealed carry in Albuquerque for 30 days

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  • spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    None of that matters. A certain percentage of people, hearing a police chief or superintendent stating they will enforce one of these ******** laws, will comply out of fear. The result is the same the right is infringed whether the law is actively enforced or not.
    No doubt about that. That, however, is not what this argument is about.
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    Ok . In regards 21-22 .

    Not an official press release to that effect , but enough multiple independent feedback , that MoCo PD , included municipal PDs , and SA office At Present will not arrest over otherwise legal carry , under 21-22 . If they're doing something otherwise actually illegal , charge them with that instead .

    It's a tactical legal maneuver to keep the court challenges on the Civil Slow Track .

    MoCo , thru their lawyers insist that they Can enforce it . And refuse to voluntarily commit to not enforce for the duration of court proceedings .

    ( Going hypothetical ) What if proceedings run their course , Or some Ofc goes off script and does charge , letting that cat out of the bag , and nothing left to lose on that point ?
    I have not said word one about the Mo County law. How can I be a hypocrite about something that I have not said?

    For the record, it is an awful law, it is ripe for potential abuse, it is Unconstitutional.

    Again... go find an exact quote of something I have said that makes me a hypocrite in this argument.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    21,988
    Then point it out. What have I specifically said that is hypocritical? Not your broad interpretation about what could have been or might be. Quote what I have written that is hypocritical. I will address any actual examples you provide.

    Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk
    So you intended to call me "obtuse" or a "troll" ?

    Please go back and reread my post. No mention of you was made nor any other specific forum member. I suspect you are being a little too sensitive. However, if you feel it applies to you then defend your position. But I do not intend to single out any specific forum members in what was a general discussion of police authorities and how to tell which ones should be believed or not.
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    I quoted your post, but I could have quoted several other posts that were ignoring reality and substituting your strawman hypothetical and made the comment that "some of you" are either obtuse or trolling. You called me a hypocrite. Still waiting for an example to support it.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    21,988
    I quoted your post, but I could have quoted several other posts that were ignoring reality and substituting your strawman hypothetical and made the comment that "some of you" are either obtuse or trolling. You called me a hypocrite. Still waiting for an example to support it.
    You really need to go back and reread the posts. I never mentioned anything about Montgomery County or County Code 32. You are seriously getting posters mixed up.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,061
    Montgomery County
    That isn't a point that I am making.
    MY point is that you're talking about a point that doesn't matter to normal people who turn on the news and hear the person in charge of the state police saying the order WILL be enforced. Still not sure why you think the average person should know that official is lying.
    Barack Obama apologized to the world for Americans. Although he was speaking for you, did that represent you?

    Biden said that the biggest threat to America is white supremacy. Did that represent you?
    Not good analogies. Politicians talking about their opinions and the postures of their administrations on a broad, hand-wavy topic like "America is bad" and "white supremacy is everywhere" aren't even remotely like a local state police official - in the middle of a controversy over a new order from the governor - explicitly speaking to that topic, and saying the order will be enforced by his state wide agency.
    To say that the ENTIRE force can't wait to violate your rights, simply because of the comments of the one moron isn't fair.
    I think this is the crux of the misunderstanding, here. Nobody has actually SAID that! We're talking about their boss saying it's going to be enforced, and the weight that carries for the people in a state who don't have any personal awareness of the State Police trooper culture or any line of communication to anyone on that force who would come out (especially in public) to say, "Never mind that, the guy running our agency is lying and doesn't really mean what he just carefully said."
    I heard someone in your line of work say that my mommy is fat, therefore I hate EVERYONE in your line of work. Doesn't make sense, right?
    Again, a straw man. Nobody is talking about what everybody (or everybody in a particular line of work) thinks or said. We're talking about what the person who gives them orders from the top of their command food chain said, in unmistakably clear words that he obviously meant his audience (the people of New Mexico) to take literally.

    If your chief came out today amid a similar hubbub and carefully said, "Montgomery County Police will be enforcing 21-22 ..." should we just assume that's a fresh new lie of some sort? The average person in this county has no reason to think that would explicitly be said, for the record, as a deliberate deception - but you're expecting everyone to come to that conclusion with nothing else to go on.
     

    MigraineMan

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 9, 2011
    18,904
    Frederick County
    Damn, I think she's quadrupling-down on stupid, now with extra "sanctimonious."

    nm_gov_response_nra.jpg
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    You really need to go back and reread the posts. I never mentioned anything about Montgomery County or County Code 32. You are seriously getting posters mixed up.
    I didn't quote YOU about the County Code. I quoted and responded to Bigfoot44.
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    I think this is the crux of the misunderstanding, here. Nobody has actually SAID that! We're talking about their boss saying it's going to be enforced, and the weight that carries for the people in a state who don't have any personal awareness of the State Police trooper culture or any line of communication to anyone on that force who would come out (especially in public) to say, "Never mind that, the guy running our agency is lying and doesn't really mean what he just carefully said."

    Again, a straw man. Nobody is talking about what everybody (or everybody in a particular line of work) thinks or said. We're talking about what the person who gives them orders from the top of their command food chain said, in unmistakably clear words that he obviously meant his audience (the people of New Mexico) to take literally.
    Well... that is completely false
    NM state police would be falling over themselves to enforce it, apparently.
    This was what I quoted when I said I had a problem with it. I've said this so many times I'm getting bored of writing it. Vilifiying an entire organization because of the comments of a political headpiece is ridiculous. Hence my comment about Obama apologizing to the world for Americans. He was the headpiece, speaking to a broad audience, but his comments didn't reflect me. Or Biden saying that White Supremacy is the biggest issue. He is the headpiece, I disagree completely.

    Just because an elected or politically appointed designee says something, doesn't mean that he/she represents the entire organization.

    My objection was arguing that each and every NM State Trooper was anxiously awaiting the chance to violate your Constitutional rights. That is like saying that every single American soldier (or even a large portion) in Vietnam was looking to rape, murder and burn innocent villagers. It is simply not true.

    Again, a straw man. Nobody is talking about what everybody (or everybody in a particular line of work) thinks or said. We're talking about what the person who gives them orders from the top of their command food chain said, in unmistakably clear words that he obviously meant his audience (the people of New Mexico) to take literally.

    If your chief came out today amid a similar hubbub and carefully said, "Montgomery County Police will be enforcing 21-22 ..." should we just assume that's a fresh new lie of some sort? The average person in this county has no reason to think that would explicitly be said, for the record, as a deliberate deception - but you're expecting everyone to come to that conclusion with nothing else to go on.
    Sigh... once again, I simply ask for you to wait for facts before you start executing NM Staties, or MCPD officers. If the Superintendent or Chief says it's going to happen, I can certainly understand you become more worried and cautious and starting to think about how you will react. All I am saying is that maybe we wait until they actually start enforcing the law before you start picking them off from a snipers position.

    I've never once said that it's not fair to criticize the Superintendent. In fact, I have criticized him. But I save my criticism for those that deserve it. But again, the comment to which I responded, that started all of this back and forth is this one.
    NM state police would be falling over themselves to enforce it, apparently.
    If you don't agree with his comments that the entire NM State Police want to enforce it, then why did you reply to my response to him?
     

    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,170
    variable
    Like any police force, the NMSP is a top down organization. If the supe says they are going to enforce it, we have to assume that they are going to enforce it. It's not hard.

    Now, there was never any memo through the chain of command on how exactly that was going to be done. As there was no specific penalty attached to the 'health order' it would have required some interpretation of what the officers were to do.

    For those who believe that 'cops wouldn't do this'. Well, during Covid cops arrested people for heinous crimes like 'praying in a church parking lot'. I am not going to rely on a cops conscience for my freedom.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,479
    It's sinking in to me now .

    The key phrase at issue is " Falling all over themselves to enforce it " , and multiple connotations thereof .

    Not having any NMSP inside sources , would have to use general knowledge of parallel situiations .

    X% , greater than zero , of rank & file , probably larger than in previous century would think it's a good idea , with various motivations, and take self initive to enforce

    Y% , greater than zero , probably less than in the previous century , would pointedly not enforce .

    How the split would work there is unknown .

    The more that the chain of command should decide to emphasize by directives , policies , and guidance at roll coll , the more limited group Y would be able to exercise discression .
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,061
    Montgomery County
    I've never once said that it's not fair to criticize the Superintendent. In fact, I have criticized him. But I save my criticism for those that deserve it. But again, the comment to which I responded, that started all of this back and forth is this one.

    If you don't agree with his comments that the entire NM State Police want to enforce it, then why did you reply to my response to him?
    I'm sorry that the context of his (obviously, jump-the-gun, no evidence at hand) comment about "all the state police." But that's actually not what I was responding to. The issue that jumped out at me was the notion that the average citizen should reflexively discount the head of a state police department as lying when he makes such a clear statement. I think you're too close to the subject matter (I don't mean that in a bad way) to know how normal people process what the heads of such agencies proclaim. Generally, people assume that something said so deliberately in such circumstances is exactly what the person speaking the words meant to say.

    I am life-long friends with people in your line of work (and in your department, even!) and know that officers are a mixed bag on topics like this. If actually ordered to enforce a public health emergency order, it's safe to say there would be plenty of disgust in the ranks, but also at least some measure of doing what they're ordered to do. That (perhaps very small measure indeed) is what makes people whose entire ability to make a living and keep a roof over their family's heads depends on not being arrested listen closely when the top cop in the state says enforcement is going to happen.
     

    MigraineMan

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 9, 2011
    18,904
    Frederick County
    Whee!
    This order will not do anything to curb gun violence other than punish law-abiding citizens from their constitutional right to self-defense," [Bernalillo County Sheriff John] Allen said at a news conference.

    "It’s unconstitutional. So there’s no way we could enforce that order," he added.
    Governor Deflecting-Grisham responded:
    “I don’t need a lecture on constitutionality from Sheriff Allen: what I need is action," Lujan Grisham said in a statement in response to a request for comment.

    "We’ve passed common-sense gun legislation, including red flag laws, domestic violence protections, a ban on straw purchases, and safe storage laws; dedicated hundreds of millions of dollars to a fund specifically to help law enforcement hire and retain officers; increased penalties for violent offenders and provided massive support to intervention programs," she added. "We’ve given you the tools, Sheriff Allen — now stop being squeamish about using them. I will not back down from doing what’s right and I will always put the safety of the people of New Mexico first.”
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,061
    Montgomery County
    Notice that the guvnuh, on listing ALL the things the state has done to make Gun Violins go away, doesn't mention making the state and local prosecutors actually follow through and lock up the criminals that are the ones doing all the killing. She never mentions them, and reporters don't ever seem to ask that central question.
     

    brianns

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 29, 2015
    3,418
    Montgomery County
    Notice that the guvnuh, on listing ALL the things the state has done to make Gun Violins go away, doesn't mention making the state and local prosecutors actually follow through and lock up the criminals that are the ones doing all the killing. She never mentions them, and reporters don't ever seem to ask that central question.
    It's laziness. Never ascribe work to actual problems that you just can rob freedoms from good people to pay lip service to.
     

    RFBfromDE

    W&C MD, UT, PA
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 21, 2022
    11,244
    The Land of Pleasant Living
    Notice that the guvnuh, on listing ALL the things the state has done to make Gun Violins go away, doesn't mention making the state and local prosecutors actually follow through and lock up the criminals that are the ones doing all the killing. She never mentions them, and reporters don't ever seem to ask that central question.
    They wouldn't recognize a demagogue or a straw man if I shoved it up their ass.

    But I'm willing to try....
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    I'm sorry that the context of his (obviously, jump-the-gun, no evidence at hand) comment about "all the state police." But that's actually not what I was responding to. The issue that jumped out at me was the notion that the average citizen should reflexively discount the head of a state police department as lying when he makes such a clear statement. I think you're too close to the subject matter (I don't mean that in a bad way) to know how normal people process what the heads of such agencies proclaim. Generally, people assume that something said so deliberately in such circumstances is exactly what the person speaking the words meant to say.
    I am simply trying to educate and encourage critical thinking. Biden doesn't speak for me, even though he is the president of my country. Just cause he says something doesn't mean I am going to do it.

    The NRA has supported Red Flag Laws. Does that mean that every member of the NRA, or evey gun owner gets sexually aroused at the thought of a SWAT team hitting someone's door to recover a gun after a grumpy ex-wife filed a false complaint to get his guns removed? These are all logical parallels. Some of you (not neccesarily you, but several people have argued against my parallel reasoning) don't like it when I include an organization of which they are a part.

    I just want people to think about what they are really grumpy about, before labeling an entire group of people. The Superintendent made the comment, villify him. I won't stand in your way.

    I am just asking people to be reasonable before assigning blame and gathering the pitchforks and lanterns. I really don't think that this is such a high burden.
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,264
    Notice that the guvnuh, on listing ALL the things the state has done to make Gun Violins go away, doesn't mention making the state and local prosecutors actually follow through and lock up the criminals that are the ones doing all the killing. She never mentions them, and reporters don't ever seem to ask that central question.
    It's laziness. Never ascribe work to actual problems that you just can rob freedoms from good people to pay lip service to.
    I doubt it's laziness. If it was the occasional news media source that declined to ask the question, I would say its laziness or ineptitude on the individual reporters part. The main stream media NEVER asks questions or posts statistics to show what is really happening.

    We've got all kinds of gun laws in Montgomery County. We don't use them the way the laws were written. We intentionally give lenient sentences or drop charges on pleas rather than actually sentence people to the 5 year gun penalty. That allows the politicians to go back and say that we aren't doing enough and we need MORE gun laws. The intent of gun laws isn't to stop gun violence, the intent of gun laws is to stop gun ownership.

    If they actually used the laws that existed, it would seriously curb gun violence and put the few violent offenders in jail for mandatory periods of time. Then everyone could see that the problem isn't 99.9% of gun owners, but the very small percentage of CRIMINALS. Then it would be almost impossible to pass gun control laws, which defeats the end goal.
     

    Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    27,459
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Terrible video quality but regardless, this guy was open carrying and went to ask some NMSP if they were going to issue citations? First bunch said they weren't going to talk about it and referred him to a couple of sergeants.

    Sergeant on left, when asked if they were going to issue citations or honor his oath said that they do honor their oath but they were going to follow the directions they have been given from their superiors. Sergeant on right said that he was simply going to educate this guy that he was violating the Guvnah's health order and then walk away.

    FF to ~16min mark to hear that exchange.

     

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