New Shooters: What Kind of Training Would You Want?

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  • Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    39,688
    Glen Burnie
    Not new to shooting, soon to be new to carrying concealed more in MD. I would be interested in immersive training scenarios of shoot-no-shoot, situational awareness, and confrontation situations different scenarios that might come up. I have seen one range offer a class called "concealed carry live" which it claims will put students in stress full situations that one could encounter while carrying concealed, using laser training guns they are immersive situations. After the simulation is completed, you can learn from mistakes and possibly learn how you would react in higher-stress situations. When looking at their class calendar, they don't list any dates for that training, so I am not sure how often that class is actually offered.

    I am not looking for 360 simulator training, I want real interactions and, heck, even simmunition to help understand that even if you do stop the threat, you might have taken fire as well. It's one thing to get hit with a laser, but I think it would sink in and make you learn from your mistakes by taking a simmunition round. That way you think more about the situations that may arise and if you draw your firearm.
    SIMS is absolutely essential and best for shoot/no shoot scenarios. To get "shot" while taking shots teaches you to stay in the fight and ignore the rounds hitting you. Granted, not real, but you learn to stay in the fight. It's priceless.
    The thing with SIMS, is that it's expensive and you really need a huge warehouse venue where you can change walls/rooms, etc... for different scenarios.

    Answer your first sentence, we just had sort of just that a couple weeks ago. It was a mish mash of holster carry options, use of force, awareness. Just a potpourri of everyone basically leading the whole day. I thought it was a great time.
    I'd like to do it again for those who couldn't make it last time.
     

    mvee

    Active Member
    Dec 13, 2007
    2,340
    Crofton
    My experience is usually very static at a range.

    I had shot once for work and we had to sprint along the length of the range and then engage a target. It was really interesting how that affected my shooting

    I would like to have instruction on how to setup a holster and how draw a concealed gun. I would also be interested in exercises in drawing and shooting from seated, and different positions. I would like to be given instruction on how to do these things and then have my performance evaluated. I would also like to be shown exercises that I could practice at home to refine my skills.

    I would like training involving moving
     

    davela

    Junior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 7, 2022
    41
    Edgewater, MD
    Honestly, I’ve never been taught proper anything as it relates to guns. I’ve gone to the range a couple of times (I’m going to try to make it again this weekend) and kinda mimicked what I’ve seen on YouTube. I’ve only shot my AR and my scorpion pistol though, nothing that I’d be able to wear on me once I’ve obtained my concealed. I do have a P10F, which is what I plan to take this weekend, but it seems I should have gone for the P10C. To be fair, when I bought it, a concealed permit didn’t seem like it’d be obtainable.

    To your question- I’m a noob, I’d be interested in anything that’d make me less of one
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    39,688
    Glen Burnie
    Honestly, I’ve never been taught proper anything as it relates to guns. I’ve gone to the range a couple of times (I’m going to try to make it again this weekend) and kinda mimicked what I’ve seen on YouTube. I’ve only shot my AR and my scorpion pistol though, nothing that I’d be able to wear on me once I’ve obtained my concealed. I do have a P10F, which is what I plan to take this weekend, but it seems I should have gone for the P10C. To be fair, when I bought it, a concealed permit didn’t seem like it’d be obtainable.

    To your question- I’m a noob, I’d be interested in anything that’d make me less of one
    You would fit right in. You're not as noob as you think you are. Seriously.
     

    miles71

    Active Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,100
    Belcamp, Md.
    The NRA fluff wouldn't be my fluff. I so want not to be like the NRA. People don't want NRA.
    It has it's place, but not with me. It had no part in my training and experience, so it's a nothing burger to me.

    I will take people through the basics, but not NRA basics. I will also build people's confidence by having them shoot standing on one foot, one handed, etc... Letting them know how ******** stance means for the most part. Anyone can go to any "instructor" out there and get the basics for 8 hours.
    This isn't going to be about repetitions to build up muscle memory, but different shooting to let people know what they can do with a pistol. They can take everything with them and use it with their dry fire. Show people what they can do.

    There's always room for a stepped curriculum for "basic 101", "Moderate 202" (only after you've had Basic 101). I get all that.
    I'm not expecting to make people operators, but show them recoil is nothing to worry about and in many circumstances, they will be able to land a decent self defense shot. No pretty quarter sized groups in this class. I try to get people away from worrying about small groups. They won't be "Closing the gap in order to make a hostage headshot". But pressing out from the high ready and making shots all the way out to presentation, yeah.

    Also, what's wrong with taking someone's question about shooting a certain thing and showing them that? Or not and telling them it's not realistic. To me, nothing.
    Keep it small and address everyone's questions, concerns, and issues. Casual and comfortable.
    Sounds good to me and don’t know many, if anyone, doing it. With your experience and, I am sure whoever you work with’s experience it would be a worthwhile experience. Hope it becomes a reality.

    TD
     

    miles71

    Active Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,100
    Belcamp, Md.
    My experience is usually very static at a range.

    I had shot once for work and we had to sprint along the length of the range and then engage a target. It was really interesting how that affected my shooting

    I would like to have instruction on how to setup a holster and how draw a concealed gun. I would also be interested in exercises in drawing and shooting from seated, and different positions. I would like to be given instruction on how to do these things and then have my performance evaluated. I would also like to be shown exercises that I could practice at home to refine my skills.

    I would like training involving moving
    Some instructors do include presentation, holster and belt suggestions, and drills on how to develop a good draw from a holster in their Md W&C classes, I am one of them.

    If not, and you plan on carrying, you should seek out training that does include these concepts.

    TD
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    12,505
    SIMS is absolutely essential and best for shoot/no shoot scenarios. To get "shot" while taking shots teaches you to stay in the fight and ignore the rounds hitting you. Granted, not real, but you learn to stay in the fight. It's priceless.
    The thing with SIMS, is that it's expensive and you really need a huge warehouse venue where you can change walls/rooms, etc... for different scenarios.

    Answer your first sentence, we just had sort of just that a couple weeks ago. It was a mish mash of holster carry options, use of force, awareness. Just a potpourri of everyone basically leading the whole day. I thought it was a great time.
    I'd like to do it again for those who couldn't make it last time.
    Bonus points for using potpourri in a sentence. :D
     

    mvee

    Active Member
    Dec 13, 2007
    2,340
    Crofton
    Some instructors do include presentation, holster and belt suggestions, and drills on how to develop a good draw from a holster in their Md W&C classes, I am one of them.

    If not, and you plan on carrying, you should seek out training that does include these concepts.

    TD
    Yes, my class went over the basics of drawing, using a borrowed firearm and holster. Our instructor went over what was available and what he preferred and why.
    My plan is to first get a dedicated concealed firearm and good holster and belt for it. I would like help in fitting the holster to my body and clothing. I would also like to know what methods practices and equipment I should stay away from and why. I have several guns but I don’t have one that I now believe is ideal for concealed carry right now.
    I would like to develop my technique by training with what I will carry. I would like input from someone who is an expert in this. I have recognized that I learn much quicker when someone can train me on a subject and I don’t have to try to figure it out by myself.

    I hope that Blaster will be offering training . His background is tailored to this style of carry.

    I am looking forward to pursuing more advanced training. I now know what to start looking for.
     

    Sage954

    Member
    Oct 8, 2019
    145
    I think Steel Challenge would be a great start. The audible feedback and moving accross targets while being timed is a different game. Holster practice as well. Paper targets are a great accuracy test. Best to be good at both.
     

    TRON 2.0

    Free light cycle rides
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 13, 2011
    137
    PG county
    SIMS is absolutely essential and best for shoot/no shoot scenarios. To get "shot" while taking shots teaches you to stay in the fight and ignore the rounds hitting you. Granted, not real, but you learn to stay in the fight. It's priceless.
    The thing with SIMS, is that it's expensive and you really need a huge warehouse venue where you can change walls/rooms, etc... for different scenarios.

    Answer your first sentence, we just had sort of just that a couple weeks ago. It was a mish mash of holster carry options, use of force, awareness. Just a potpourri of everyone basically leading the whole day. I thought it was a great time.
    I'd like to do it again for those who couldn't make it last time.
    Silver eagle group (SEG) in VA used to have a SIMS /shoot house on their facility. I got a walk through about 4 or 5 years ago and it was great. They had multiple cars and a two story complex with multiple rooms in it. I never got to signup for a session with them. After realizing I wanted more training I went to their website to see what the prices were and it looks like they moved locations and got rid of the SIMS warehouse, it was a sad moment.

    SEG was smart, they setup shop in the middle of all the datacenters. So all the IT guys who like guns stop in and accidentally spend money while waiting for work to finish or start. I got my walk through of their SIMS house while I was waiting for an ISP to show up and install internet into one of my Datacenter sites.

    If there does happen to be another session does get put together, I would be interested in attending, as long as scheduling works out.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    39,688
    Glen Burnie
    I think Steel Challenge would be a great start. The audible feedback and moving accross targets while being timed is a different game. Holster practice as well. Paper targets are a great accuracy test. Best to be good at both.
    We have steel. Feedback is great to have
     

    Dave4truth

    Junior Member
    Aug 18, 2022
    7
    Catonsville
    I know that we don't know what we don't know. But after navigating through these WC classes and getting your permit, has there been anything that you would like to learn that maybe you felt shorted on? Or been wanting to try?
    Shooting while sitting? Multiple targets? 1 yard contact shots? Point shooting, holster drawing?
    I will diagnose and go over grip, basics, etc...
    If you only had 6 hours to learn anything you wanted to take away to use on your own, what would it be?
    My question is where is any such training available?
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    9,326
    Harford County
    I think Steel Challenge would be a great start. The audible feedback and moving accross targets while being timed is a different game. Holster practice as well. Paper targets are a great accuracy test. Best to be good at both.
    Steel Challenge would be a great supplement (either before or after) training. While the adrenaline is artificially created by shooting on the clock in front of a bunch of people who are watching very closely to heckle (or send you home) for making a mistake, it definitely is a shooting experience that most of us may not be used to.
    Tooting my own horn a little bit, we have a small, very noobie friendly steel match this weekend in Delta PA.

    Sometimes we get a little creative with movement and barriers on the big stage, but there are always a couple very simple ones. You need some degree of shooting experience, but it is a great place to start in the action sports. I like to say that it's fine for your first competition, but it shouldn't be the first time you've shot a gun ;)

    IDPA takes it to a whole other level. I've only dabbled in some very basic local matches, but they definitely get you shooting out of your normal position. The first and only time I have ever been in handcuffs was an IDPA match. A neat stage that I vividly remember replicated being in a public bathroom when bad stuff goes down outside the stall. Starting in a seated position, gun unloaded on the ground in front of you, you had to flop down, load, and engage several targets from your belly (side, etc...not on your feet) from under a barricade that simulated the stall door. The extra tricky part was the targets were spaced so that you had to move your position (either roll from one side onto the other...crab-walk on your elbows...something) to engage all of them. All the while maintaining muzzle and trigger finger discipline.

    What the action shooting sports will not give you that I'm sure Blaster is offering, is instruction, feedback, and the opportunity to try it again....and again using the feedback from the past run to get better. In a match, you might get some coaching before your run, and if you do anything unsafe it will be abruptly pointed out (potentially ending your day). Generally though, once the timer starts you're on your own to figure things out...and you only get one chance. It is hella fun and you can learn a lot...but it is not the same as training.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    9,326
    Harford County
    Honestly, I'd just like to learn how not to anticipate recoil :o. I know it sounds basic, but that's where I am. I've seen videos that explain what's happening...I've practiced with .22's...dry fire. Man, if I could shoot the way I dry fire, I'd be called a porn star...because every group would be XXX.
    I've done the snap cap in the mag (loaded by someone else). I've seen what I do. I know it's as simple as, "Then just don't do that!" but it isn't that easy...:rolleye12. I do it way worse with some guns than others. I'm fairly sure I'm not afraid of the recoil...not consciously, anyway (heck, one that I shoot the best is a .44 mag :shrug:), but when I know it's coming that front sight just drops out of view at the last microsecond.

    I bet I'm not the only one who needs to learn this :innocent0
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    39,688
    Glen Burnie
    Honestly, I'd just like to learn how not to anticipate recoil :o. I know it sounds basic, but that's where I am. I've seen videos that explain what's happening...I've practiced with .22's...dry fire. Man, if I could shoot the way I dry fire, I'd be called a porn star...because every group would be XXX.
    I've done the snap cap in the mag (loaded by someone else). I've seen what I do. I know it's as simple as, "Then just don't do that!" but it isn't that easy...:rolleye12. I do it way worse with some guns than others. I'm fairly sure I'm not afraid of the recoil...not consciously, anyway (heck, one that I shoot the best is a .44 mag :shrug:), but when I know it's coming that front sight just drops out of view at the last microsecond.

    I bet I'm not the only one who needs to learn this :innocent0
    You anticipate recoil by knowing recoil is going to happen and you learn to shoot with it, while controlling as best you can. Recoil is part of the shooting process.
    That's the problem with "instructors". They start people with shooting .22's and they don't address recoil.
    Ugh. This is so aggravating for me.
    I take shooters and get them used to recoil first before anything. Then we can concentrate on sight alignment and everything else after.
    Ugh I need a range.
     

    md77

    Junior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 17, 2022
    66
    MoCo
    You anticipate recoil by knowing recoil is going to happen and you learn to shoot with it, while controlling as best you can. Recoil is part of the shooting process.
    That's the problem with "instructors". They start people with shooting .22's and they don't address recoil.
    Ugh. This is so aggravating for me.
    I take shooters and get them used to recoil first before anything. Then we can concentrate on sight alignment and everything else after.
    Ugh I need a range.
    I appreciate your approach and experience but I see it a little differently. As a short intro, I have been a firearms and tactics instructor for my agency for about 22 years and have had the great fortune to attend a lot of training. While I agree recoil is something you have to deal with, I think there is huge value in starting with the .22. If the first 10 rounds scares the hell out of someone and makes them nervous about pulling the trigger I think you have created a bunch more battles you now have to fight that are not really necessary. I would prefer to start someone (particularly a new shooter) with a similar platform in .22 and work on the simple but important things. With a .22 you can work on hand position, sights, and trigger control and focus on the mechanics without all the movement. Think about baseball; how many kids would continue playing if the first pitcher they faced when they were 7 threw a wicked curveball and a 90+ fast ball? Everything you want to do well involves growing, and I would suggest that moving from .22 to 9mm or .38 is growth and rushing that may not be to your benefit. Once the person can draw, present, and press out a nice shot I would suggest a few hundred draws as slowly as you can with one shot at the end of each (then 2 and then 3), then a nice slow return to the holster and start again. In my experience a new shooter's biggest enemy is the holster (and draw stroke), so getting out clean can make everything that follows much easier. I find value in trigger pulls, whether they are 9mm, .45, .22, or laser; doing the right thing a few thousand times doesn't have to cost a ton of money or take valuable range time. Most new shooters can learn a lot from drawing a red gun from their holster in front of a mirror. When they are getting nice and comfortable with the .22 then the move to 9 is easier since recoil control comes more from technique than brute strength. Get out the 9 and start again nice and slowly, overwhelming people is a sure way to take the fun out of it. I have seen women at the range with their idiot boyfriend who thinks its fun to have her shoot the 44 mag as a first shot. Now she never wants to try that again and he at the very least ruined a shooting partner and perhaps turned someone off from shooting altogether.

    Sorry for the soapbox, and not saying anyone else's approach is wrong, just sharing some of what I have been fortunate enough to take away from some of the great shooters I have worked with.

    Take care all..
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    9,326
    Harford County
    You anticipate recoil by knowing recoil is going to happen and you learn to shoot with it, while controlling as best you can. Recoil is part of the shooting process.
    That's the problem with "instructors". They start people with shooting .22's and they don't address recoil.
    Ugh. This is so aggravating for me.
    I take shooters and get them used to recoil first before anything. Then we can concentrate on sight alignment and everything else after.
    Ugh I need a range.
    I'm pretty sure I'm trying to control it before it even happens. I kinda wonder if I shoot the .44 better because I know that I'm not going to control (too much) the recoil and just go along for the ride? I mean, I still grip it tight, obviously, but I have no illusions about trying to get it back on target before it is finished doing its thing.
     

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