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  • Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    3,534
    I suspect with so many States/Counties that were "Shotgun only" for deer, now allowing "Straight wall cartridge" with energy restrictions (that the 357 don't meet),, Is the reason for Marlins concentration on 45-70 rifles.
     

    lazarus

    Active Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    10,805
    I suspect with so many States/Counties that were "Shotgun only" for deer, now allowing "Straight wall cartridge" with energy restrictions (that the 357 don't meet),, Is the reason for Marlins concentration on 45-70 rifles.
    Other states? Maryland hotter .357 absolutely meet the energy requirements. Most other states it is a caliber/bird restriction, not an energy restriction.
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    3,534
    Other states? Maryland hotter .357 absolutely meet the energy requirements. Most other states it is a caliber/bird restriction, not an energy restriction.
    As a 357 wheel gun guy, My 1st choice was a 357 lever gun. I found 1 load from "Buffalo Bullet" that met MDs energy requirement, and just barely.
    I talked to the deer manager (in one of the county management programs) and he came to the same conclusion that it was too marginal and preferred the 44 or 45-70 for the management program.
    The 45-70 is definitely a "full spectrum" caliber, while the 357 is a "just barely"
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    41,257
    MD
    Forgive my ignorance, but what's the magic of straight wall bullets? Obviously there's a lot of ground between .44 magnum and .45-70. Why would those two be permitted but .30-30 wouldn't?
     

    308Scout

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 27, 2020
    3,483
    Washington County
    Forgive my ignorance, but what's the magic of straight wall bullets? Obviously there's a lot of ground between .44 magnum and .45-70. Why would those two be permitted but .30-30 wouldn't?
    Bottleneck cartridges typically have more case volume behind the bullet resulting in greater energy and velocity. Straight wall cartridges tend to be slower and have less range as they have less powder behind them comparatively speaking - less range equating to greater safety from the DNR perspective. At least that's my understanding of the argument.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    10,037
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Forgive my ignorance, but what's the magic of straight wall bullets? Obviously there's a lot of ground between .44 magnum and .45-70. Why would those two be permitted but .30-30 wouldn't?
    It's an arbitrary standard, but one examined with more urbanized areas in mind. One that encompasses an effort to group cartridges with some added simplicity in mind, rather than to name each of hundreds of potential cartridges individually.

    While arbitrary, and while certainly not perfect science, it's based on the correct conclusion that as a group, most straight wall cartridges are pistol/revolver cartridges that will generally have less maximum absolute range than will most bottle neck rifle cartridges.

    Some rough comparisons below, though at a glance there are no doubt mistakes in at least 2 of the numbers that appear.

     
    Last edited:

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    41,257
    MD
    Thank you both. I probably should have known that but didn't.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    10,037
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Thank you both. I probably should have known that but didn't.

    It isn't you. There are many instances where one is left scratching their head.

    Slackdaddy's mention above regarding .357 magnum just meeting 1200 foot pounds of energy in a rifle with a particular Buffalo Bore load is correct. 1200 foot pounds of energy is the minimum standard for deer hunting with rifle in Maryland. Yet if Slackdaddy were hunting with his revolver, he'd need a load achieving only 700 foot pounds of energy to be legal.

    Which begs the question, how much energy does one need to humanely harvest deer? Is it 700 fpe? Is it 1200 fpe? Is it Either? Is it Neither? Is it Both?

    I'll suggest that the "most correct" answer is neither. Yet where the desire is "simplicity", and with the thought that "simplicity" requires a standard, even when the standard can be arbitrary as all hell.....

    700fpe for handguns for deer in Maryland. 1200fpe for rifles.

    Simple yes. The gold standard of what's effective on deer? Despite the best of intentions, that's an entirely different discussion.
     

    lazarus

    Active Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    10,805
    As a 357 wheel gun guy, My 1st choice was a 357 lever gun. I found 1 load from "Buffalo Bullet" that met MDs energy requirement, and just barely.
    I talked to the deer manager (in one of the county management programs) and he came to the same conclusion that it was too marginal and preferred the 44 or 45-70 for the management program.
    The 45-70 is definitely a "full spectrum" caliber, while the 357 is a "just barely"
    I can look if you’d like. There are a couple more out there (Corbon and Underwood I think both have a load or two?)

    If you hand load it’s is fairly achievable.

    IMHO, just meeting the legal standard is more than enough for me. Hunting with a 30 carbine and soft point bullets would be perfectly ethical at relatively short ranges (100yds or under for sure).

    As mentioned, why 700ft-lbs for a handgun, but 1200 for a rifle? A 6-8” .357 has plenty of loads that’ll easily meet 700ft-lbs. but a rifle it barely meets it with the hottest loads. Yet that exact same round is trucking along at 300-400fps faster!

    A 300BO only has around 1400ft-lbs. that’s not much over the hottest rifle .357 loads. And a 158gr .357 is probably going to hit harder than a 110gr .308. Or load up a 110/120gr .357 if you can find a bullet with a thick enough jacket.

    I don’t hear many saying a 300BO is marginal.

    Don’t get me wrong, I would not want to be shooting deer at 200yds with a .357. I’d have no qualms about hunting one from 100yds and in with any expanding .357 loads out of a rifle. Juiced if it should please the king’s men.

    Deer managers want something that jibs a deer and the hunter just has pieces to pick up. Over the spectrum of hunters, they have to deal with the good and the “I had to try three times to pass the sight in test” which is putting 3 shots on a paper plate at 50yds.

    But IMHO, I am doing most of my hunting between 40-80yds with a gun in the woods. So a .357 that is suppressed is just dandy for me for a SWC. I don’t need extra cartridges to load for and it’s going to get used 99.99% at the range or some hypothetical future larger property I can shoot on for light loaded suppressed plinking. And a coated lead 158gr loaded to about 900-1000fps is a whole lot cheaper than a 240gr loaded to the same out of a .44 mag rifle or a 255gr out of a 45LC loaded to the same.

    Less powder. Less lead. Also quieter.

    It isn’t something I’d take to rifle counties probably. And if for some crazy reason I buy a bigger property in a SWC county that has longer ranges than “in the woods”, we’ll is consider a 45LC or .44 mag at that point. Or even a .45-70.

    I’ve got limited funds and limited spousal patients (she is at best tacitly tolerant of me owning guns. Things like “I need a new safe because I ran out of space” are not conversations that go well). So even if a larger caliber might “be better” I know for my marksmanship and comfort level a .357 lever gun is sufficient to deer hunt with. Especially since I will unlikely not own two lever guns. Or at least not in the next decade or so, I am willing to be patient. Wait and see what 1894s Ruger comes out with.
     

    Bisleyfan44

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 11, 2008
    1,669
    Wicomico
    It isn't you. There are many instances where one is left scratching their head.

    Slackdaddy's mention above regarding .357 magnum just meeting 1200 foot pounds of energy in a rifle with a particular Buffalo Bore load is correct. 1200 foot pounds of energy is the minimum standard for deer hunting with rifle in Maryland. Yet if Slackdaddy were hunting with his revolver, he'd need a load achieving only 700 foot pounds of energy to be legal.

    Which begs the question, how much energy does one need to humanely harvest deer? Is it 700 fpe? Is it 1200 fpe? Is it Either? Is it Neither? Is it Both?

    I'll suggest that the "most correct" answer is neither. Yet where the desire is "simplicity", and with the thought that "simplicity" requires a standard, even when the standard can be arbitrary as all hell.....

    700fpe for handguns for deer in Maryland. 1200fpe for rifles.

    Simple yes. The gold standard of what's effective on deer? Despite the best of intentions, that's an entirely different discussion.
    Spot on! Those are the numbers, but they're just numbers. Deer don't die due to foot pounds of energy. They die when they're hit in the right spot with a bullet capable of doing sufficient damage. But I guess we gotta have laws about everything (sarcasm).
     

    Bisleyfan44

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 11, 2008
    1,669
    Wicomico
    I can look if you’d like. There are a couple more out there (Corbon and Underwood I think both have a load or two?)

    If you hand load it’s is fairly achievable.

    IMHO, just meeting the legal standard is more than enough for me. Hunting with a 30 carbine and soft point bullets would be perfectly ethical at relatively short ranges (100yds or under for sure).

    As mentioned, why 700ft-lbs for a handgun, but 1200 for a rifle? A 6-8” .357 has plenty of loads that’ll easily meet 700ft-lbs. but a rifle it barely meets it with the hottest loads. Yet that exact same round is trucking along at 300-400fps faster!

    A 300BO only has around 1400ft-lbs. that’s not much over the hottest rifle .357 loads. And a 158gr .357 is probably going to hit harder than a 110gr .308. Or load up a 110/120gr .357 if you can find a bullet with a thick enough jacket.

    I don’t hear many saying a 300BO is marginal.

    Don’t get me wrong, I would not want to be shooting deer at 200yds with a .357. I’d have no qualms about hunting one from 100yds and in with any expanding .357 loads out of a rifle. Juiced if it should please the king’s men.

    Deer managers want something that jibs a deer and the hunter just has pieces to pick up. Over the spectrum of hunters, they have to deal with the good and the “I had to try three times to pass the sight in test” which is putting 3 shots on a paper plate at 50yds.

    But IMHO, I am doing most of my hunting between 40-80yds with a gun in the woods. So a .357 that is suppressed is just dandy for me for a SWC. I don’t need extra cartridges to load for and it’s going to get used 99.99% at the range or some hypothetical future larger property I can shoot on for light loaded suppressed plinking. And a coated lead 158gr loaded to about 900-1000fps is a whole lot cheaper than a 240gr loaded to the same out of a .44 mag rifle or a 255gr out of a 45LC loaded to the same.

    Less powder. Less lead. Also quieter.

    It isn’t something I’d take to rifle counties probably. And if for some crazy reason I buy a bigger property in a SWC county that has longer ranges than “in the woods”, we’ll is consider a 45LC or .44 mag at that point. Or even a .45-70.

    I’ve got limited funds and limited spousal patients (she is at best tacitly tolerant of me owning guns. Things like “I need a new safe because I ran out of space” are not conversations that go well). So even if a larger caliber might “be better” I know for my marksmanship and comfort level a .357 lever gun is sufficient to deer hunt with. Especially since I will unlikely not own two lever guns. Or at least not in the next decade or so, I am willing to be patient. Wait and see what 1894s Ruger comes out with.
    Excellent post!
     

    Melnic

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    13,655
    HoCo
    I have a 45-70 load that 405grains. Its subsonic but not quite 1200ft-lbs.
    I imagine one could get subsonic and 1200ft-lbs if they wanted to with a heavier bullet . Suppressed, it would be a nice quiet solution.
    As mentioned, in Jurassic world XIV coming out, it would be a safe solution to hunt and not draw as much attention.
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    3,534
    Same here, funds are limited,,, Too many guns (wanted), to little time and money.

    I shoot upwards of 10+ deer a year and 99.9999% are well under 80 yds.
    Shooting a 20ga H&R Ultra Slugger, soft lead flat nose 1oz slugs.
    Majority of the time I take out the boiler room but on a rare occasion not perfect or I am taking a neck shot so they don't flag the rest of the herd.

    I prefer to have the extra bit of energy transfer to cover or gloss over a "not perfect" shot.

    Also, now that I am spending time out west, thinking of upgrading my wheel guns to 44s (bear protection) and possibly using a 44 carbine in MD for deer.

    Do they make a 45-70 handgun??


    I can look if you’d like. There are a couple more out there (Corbon and Underwood I think both have a load or two?)

    If you hand load it’s is fairly achievable.

    IMHO, just meeting the legal standard is more than enough for me. Hunting with a 30 carbine and soft point bullets would be perfectly ethical at relatively short ranges (100yds or under for sure).

    As mentioned, why 700ft-lbs for a handgun, but 1200 for a rifle? A 6-8” .357 has plenty of loads that’ll easily meet 700ft-lbs. but a rifle it barely meets it with the hottest loads. Yet that exact same round is trucking along at 300-400fps faster!

    A 300BO only has around 1400ft-lbs. that’s not much over the hottest rifle .357 loads. And a 158gr .357 is probably going to hit harder than a 110gr .308. Or load up a 110/120gr .357 if you can find a bullet with a thick enough jacket.

    I don’t hear many saying a 300BO is marginal.

    Don’t get me wrong, I would not want to be shooting deer at 200yds with a .357. I’d have no qualms about hunting one from 100yds and in with any expanding .357 loads out of a rifle. Juiced if it should please the king’s men.

    Deer managers want something that jibs a deer and the hunter just has pieces to pick up. Over the spectrum of hunters, they have to deal with the good and the “I had to try three times to pass the sight in test” which is putting 3 shots on a paper plate at 50yds.

    But IMHO, I am doing most of my hunting between 40-80yds with a gun in the woods. So a .357 that is suppressed is just dandy for me for a SWC. I don’t need extra cartridges to load for and it’s going to get used 99.99% at the range or some hypothetical future larger property I can shoot on for light loaded suppressed plinking. And a coated lead 158gr loaded to about 900-1000fps is a whole lot cheaper than a 240gr loaded to the same out of a .44 mag rifle or a 255gr out of a 45LC loaded to the same.

    Less powder. Less lead. Also quieter.

    It isn’t something I’d take to rifle counties probably. And if for some crazy reason I buy a bigger property in a SWC county that has longer ranges than “in the woods”, we’ll is consider a 45LC or .44 mag at that point. Or even a .45-70.

    I’ve got limited funds and limited spousal patients (she is at best tacitly tolerant of me owning guns. Things like “I need a new safe because I ran out of space” are not conversations that go well). So even if a larger caliber might “be better” I know for my marksmanship and comfort level a .357 lever gun is sufficient to deer hunt with. Especially since I will unlikely not own two lever guns. Or at least not in the next decade or so, I am willing to be patient. Wait and see what 1894s Ruger comes out with.
     

    308Scout

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 27, 2020
    3,483
    Washington County
    Same here, funds are limited,,, Too many guns (wanted), to little time and money.

    I shoot upwards of 10+ deer a year and 99.9999% are well under 80 yds.
    Shooting a 20ga H&R Ultra Slugger, soft lead flat nose 1oz slugs.
    Majority of the time I take out the boiler room but on a rare occasion not perfect or I am taking a neck shot so they don't flag the rest of the herd.

    I prefer to have the extra bit of energy transfer to cover or gloss over a "not perfect" shot.

    Also, now that I am spending time out west, thinking of upgrading my wheel guns to 44s (bear protection) and possibly using a 44 carbine in MD for deer.

    Do they make a 45-70 handgun??

    Magnum Research's BFR is one...

    https://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr-biggest-finest-revolver/
     

    lazarus

    Active Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    10,805
    Same here, funds are limited,,, Too many guns (wanted), to little time and money.

    I shoot upwards of 10+ deer a year and 99.9999% are well under 80 yds.
    Shooting a 20ga H&R Ultra Slugger, soft lead flat nose 1oz slugs.
    Majority of the time I take out the boiler room but on a rare occasion not perfect or I am taking a neck shot so they don't flag the rest of the herd.

    I prefer to have the extra bit of energy transfer to cover or gloss over a "not perfect" shot.

    Also, now that I am spending time out west, thinking of upgrading my wheel guns to 44s (bear protection) and possibly using a 44 carbine in MD for deer.

    Do they make a 45-70 handgun??
    All good reasons. I don’t personally like marginal. I just don’t think a .357 rifle is marginal. And in fairness here, I’ll bet I hunt with a .357 lever gun in a central maryland county probably no more than a handful of times in my life once I get one. I am hoping I’ve got not much more than 10 years till I retire and move. It might be retire and move elsewhere in Maryland, but I’ll be damned if I keep my house and stay in Howard County. My wife is pushing for it and I keep telling her F no! By retirement we can sell our house and buy a similar sized one on 2-3x the land up in Carroll or Frederick even 5-10 miles away, save a couple or a few thousand a year in taxes and cash out a few hundred thousand on the difference in price between my property and that one.

    Means I can have a MUCH more comfortable retirement or I can retire 3-4 years sooner.

    So I am not staying here. Period.

    I am mostly hunting with a ML in those SWC counties in ML seasons. I do plan to do some hunting around here like Patuxent in gun season with a suppressed lever gun. It just probably won’t be a ton. In retirement maybe it will a crap load more hunting, but I am hoping my own property is large enough for gun hunting (4 acres and change is enough for bow hunting, it’s not for gun hunting. Even if my neighbors were okay with gun hunting deer). Even if it isn’t, I am likely to live a lot closer to areas I can rifle hunt and/or have the spare time and/or a second property in appropriate rifle areas to hunt.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Active Member
    My buddy was just telling me today he was shooting his new 45/70 this past weekend.
    Said he loved it.
    Stainless model. Had to come clean for the purchase with his wife when she spotted it.
    After she tried it a few times she was gtg.
     

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