New ATF regulations regarding gun shows and transfers between FFLs?

[Muleskinner]

Just left an FFL after picking up my SIG 365 And he was telling me about new ATF regulations regarding transferring pistol purchases to and out of state FFL for a customer. Apparently now the ATF wants FFLs to transfer all the firearms they're going to take to an out-of-state gun show prior to the show before any sales have taken place. How is one supposed to do that? I'm not 100% sure I understand what this regulation does but it sounds suspiciously like it's going to be very hard if not impossible for someone from another state to buy a firearm and an out-of-state gunship particularly handguns..

Anybody heard of this and have any more insight or maybe can explain it better?

 

[John from MD]

Just left an FFL after picking up my SIG 365 And he was telling me about new ATF regulations regarding transferring pistol purchases to and out of state FFL for a customer. Apparently now the ATF wants FFLs to transfer all the firearms they're going to take to an out-of-state gun show prior to the show before any sales have taken place. How is one supposed to do that? I'm not 100% sure I understand what this regulation does but it sounds suspiciously like it's going to be very hard if not impossible for someone from another state to buy a firearm and an out-of-state gunship particularly handguns..

Anybody heard of this and have any more insight or maybe can explain it better?

Maybe he was talking about people who buy on line but take possession at the gunshow. The FFL can fill out all of the info needed in the book except for the date of transfer.

Why they would want to do this I cannot fathom.

 

[RRomig]

Maybe he was talking about people who buy on line but take possession at the gunshow. The FFL can fill out all of the info needed in the book except for the date of transfer.

Why they would want to do this I cannot fathom.

I only do transfers. So when a firearm comes in I used to pencil in the owners name on the disposition side. ATF agent said I could not fill in anything on that side until the transfer was completed. I definitely haven’t seen anything lately come through email from ATF about what the op mentions and also don’t understand what exactly the ffl was saying.

 

[FFBWMD]

I believe what the OP is referring to is an FFL who wishes to take firearm inventory to sell at an out of state gun show would need to transfer said inventory to a FFL in the state where the show is. This has been a thing for a while now.

 

[John from MD]

Yep, I believe they changed that rule somewhere around 2015.

 

[ken792]

What may a licensee do at an out–of–State gun show? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

A licensee may only display and take orders for firearms at an out–of–State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the licensee must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a nonlicensee must be delivered or shipped...

www.atf.gov

https://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ATF-policy-for-out-of-state-gun-shows0001.pdf

 

[DWN]

I believe what the OP is referring to is an FFL who wishes to take firearm inventory to sell at an out of state gun show would need to transfer said inventory to a FFL in the state where the show is. This has been a thing for a while now.

Absolutely correct. You can take your firearms into another state for sale at a gun show but if you sell any, they must be transferred by a FFL licensed in that state. Prior to a show opening I contact a FFL from that state near me and arrange for them to handle the transfer.

 

[RRomig]

I believe what the OP is referring to is an FFL who wishes to take firearm inventory to sell at an out of state gun show would need to transfer said inventory to a FFL in the state where the show is. This has been a thing for a while now.

Before he goes to the show?
I get we can’t do transfers out of state to a non licensee.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Read the link in post #6 . It's ugly .

 

[FFBWMD]

Before he goes to the show?
I get we can’t do transfers out of state to a non licensee.

Yes, my understanding is if the FFL is taking inventory (non C&R) that they wish to sell/transfer at an out of state show, they must transfer said inventory (firearms) to a receiving dealer in the state where the show is being held before the show (I believe 24hrs). After the show remaining inventory can then be transferred back to original FFL. It's alot of back and forth and that's how mistakes can happen on record keeping, which is in my opinion what the ATF wants so they can jackup the dealers.

 

[RRomig]

Yes, my understanding is if the FFL is taking inventory (non C&R) that they wish to sell/transfer at an out of state show, they must transfer said inventory (firearms) to a receiving dealer in the state where the show is being held before the show (I believe 24hrs). After the show remaining inventory can then be transferred back to original FFL. It's alot of back and forth and that's how mistakes can happen on record keeping, which is in my opinion what the ATF wants so they can jackup the dealers.

So they ship the guns to the state? A transfer consists of receiving a firearm and logging it into the A & D book right ? Then those firearms would need to stay with the receiving ffl. So consider me totally lost. Feel free to pm me. This seems like a conversation that could go on and on. I can be dense at times.
Thanks

 

[SPQM]

Yes, my understanding is if the FFL is taking inventory (non C&R) that they wish to sell/transfer at an out of state show, they must transfer said inventory (firearms) to a receiving dealer in the state where the show is being held before the show (I believe 24hrs). After the show remaining inventory can then be transferred back to original FFL. It's alot of back and forth and that's how mistakes can happen on record keeping, which is in my opinion what the ATF wants so they can jackup the dealers.

Also, it effectively limits gun shows to in-state dealers; because there's no way a out of state FFL is going to rent a table and put only ten guns onto it -- even if those guns are worth a lot (Pre '64 winchesters, etc etc)

 

[ken792]

So they ship the guns to the state? A transfer consists of receiving a firearm and logging it into the A & D book right ? Then those firearms would need to stay with the receiving ffl. So consider me totally lost. Feel free to pm me. This seems like a conversation that could go on and on. I can be dense at times.
Thanks

The 2017 letter I posted explains it.

Also, it effectively limits gun shows to in-state dealers; because there's no way a out of state FFL is going to rent a table and put only ten guns onto it -- even if those guns are worth a lot (Pre '64 winchesters, etc etc)

There’s no limit to the number of non C&R guns they can consign through the process.

I know a lot of FFLs who do out of state gun shows, though they usually focus on C&R firearms that are exempt anyway.

 

[Samlab]

What? This is old news. If you do a show out of state you can always attend by transferring your gun show items to a dealer in that state ahead of the gun show from your book and onto his book. Sort of a table sharing arrangement. What doesn't sell, is then restored to your books. The reason is that some states have instant background checks beyond the scope of the standard 4473 calls for approval. So, lets say you attend a show and the customer comes to your out of state table? You could carry it over to your in state buddy's table for transfer, who puts in his books from yours and then the sale goes from there. Or you have nobody then you sell it to him, he does the 4473, and then instead of carrying out the building you ship it up to his FFL the forthcoming week for transfer. So there goes the contiguous state transfer protocols? Up above fine for the C&R but what if the customer doesn't have one? Its back to a local purchase process in that state.

 

[RRomig]

Glad I don’t do gun shows and that clears up why I seldom see out of state dealers. I bought a MG a while back from a dealer that did business in PA but was at a VA show but that must of been before this change. Thanks for the info.

The 2017 letter I posted explains it.

 

[ken792]

Glad I don’t do gun shows and that clears up why I seldom see out of state dealers. I bought a MG a while back from a dealer that did business in PA but was at a VA show but that must of been before this change. Thanks for the info.

Probably wasn’t an issue since they had to wait for the Form 3 or 4 to clear and then ship it from their premises.

The premises restriction has been around in some form or another since 1968.

 

[DWN]

I believe what the OP is referring to is an FFL who wishes to take firearm inventory to sell at an out of state gun show would need to transfer said inventory to a FFL in the state where the show is. This has been a thing for a while now.

As an FFL, you are 100% correct. An FFL can only transfer to a citizen in their state. If I transfer out of state, it has to be to an FFL of that state and then to a citizen of that state.

 

[Slackdaddy]

As an FFL, you are 100% correct. An FFL can only transfer to a citizen in their state. If I transfer out of state, it has to be to an FFL of that state and then to a citizen of that state.

Is this handguns,, or long guns also?
As a MD resident, I was under the assumption I could purchase a long gun (bolt, Lever) directly from a PA or VA FFL ?

 

[ken792]

Is this handguns,, or long guns also?
As a MD resident, I was under the assumption I could purchase a long gun (bolt, Lever) directly from a PA or VA FFL ?

He’s referring to when FFLs can do the transferring, not nonlicensees doing the receiving. FFLs can only conduct “business” in their state of licensing at the premises or a gun show.

If you go to a MD gun show, a VA or PA FFL present cannot transfer a non-C&R long gun directly to you right there. If you go to a PA gun show, an MD FFL cannot transfer a non-C&R long gun directly to you.

 

[FFBWMD]

Is this handguns,, or long guns also?
As a MD resident, I was under the assumption I could purchase a long gun (bolt, Lever) directly from a PA or VA FFL ?

This applies to FFL's not an individual buying from an out of state FFL