MSP advisory on AR pistols with braces

[swinokur]

Good point

 

[jcutonilli]

And as I mentioned MSP issued the advisory based on the legal opinion from AAG Bowen.

But feel free to split hairs on its origin.

I don’t GAF

You still don't seem to get my point. It is not about splitting hairs. It is about understanding that definitions change depending on the section you are reading. You seem to want people to be ignorant about these definitions ("Don't ask why")

The subtitle that defines a copycat weapon does not define what a rifle means and makes no mention of handguns. The definitions in the advisory do not apply to the copycat weapon subtitle. If they did one might conclude that a copycat weapon does not apply to any SBR. MSP has taken the position that the copycat weapon definition does apply to SBR's. It is unclear what their position is on the issue because the advisory does not address this particular issue.

 

[coinboy]

You still don't seem to get my point. It is not about splitting hairs. It is about understanding that definitions change depending on the section you are reading. You seem to want people to be ignorant about these definitions ("Don't ask why")

The subtitle that defines a copycat weapon does not define what a rifle means and makes no mention of handguns. The definitions in the advisory do not apply to the copycat weapon subtitle. If they did one might conclude that a copycat weapon does not apply to any SBR. MSP has taken the position that the copycat weapon definition does apply to SBR's. It is unclear what their position is on the issue because the advisory does not address this particular issue.

Hmm,

(1) "Copycat weapon" means:
(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:
1. a folding stock;
2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
3. a flash suppressor;
(ii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;

 

[erwos]

The subtitle that defines a copycat weapon does not define what a rifle means and makes no mention of handguns. The definitions in the advisory do not apply to the copycat weapon subtitle. If they did one might conclude that a copycat weapon does not apply to any SBR. MSP has taken the position that the copycat weapon definition does apply to SBR's. It is unclear what their position is on the issue because the advisory does not address this particular issue.

Trying to explain subtle legal details is always going to be a losing battle here, unfortunately. That said, you are correct. It could go either way, but the MSP made the decision to include SBRs as rifles, and without a statutory definition of rifle for this section of law, it's their call.

Anyways, I do think that if someone filed a form 1 with the ATF and explicitly wrote that the SBR was going to use a brace as the stock, they should approve it even if it's < 29" and/or fails the rifle feature test. Alas, it's going to take months for that subtle difference to flow to the ATF, because they make it up in some ways just as much as the MSP.

 

[outrider58]

Trying to explain subtle legal details is always going to be a losing battle here, unfortunately...

Anyways, I do think that if someone filed a form 1 with the ATF and explicitly wrote that the SBR was going to use a brace as the stock, they should approve it even if it's < 29" and/or fails the rifle feature test. Alas, it's going to take months for that subtle difference to flow to the ATF, because they make it up in some ways just as much as the MSP.

Somehow, I don't see that nuance ever going anywhere. Not without first seeing it in writing. Hoping it will happen is a far cry from me admitting to owning an illegal firearm.

 

[lazarus]

True
How many people locked their braced pistols in the safe and don’t have a clue they morphed into SBRs.

I tried a variation of that with my wife. "look honey, I threw both my blocks in to the safe and when I checked months later there were three new glocks in there. I have no clue how it happened, but I forgot to give my original glocks any kind of safety protection or even have the "safe glock sex" talk with them. I guess they went forth and were fruitful. Honest.

It didn't work however.

 

[swinokur]

You still don't seem to get my point. It is not about splitting hairs. It is about understanding that definitions change depending on the section you are reading. You seem to want people to be ignorant about these definitions ("Don't ask why")

The subtitle that defines a copycat weapon does not define what a rifle means and makes no mention of handguns. The definitions in the advisory do not apply to the copycat weapon subtitle. If they did one might conclude that a copycat weapon does not apply to any SBR. MSP has taken the position that the copycat weapon definition does apply to SBR's. It is unclear what their position is on the issue because the advisory does not address this particular issue.

I do understand. It’s both which is illogical to some people. Yeah reading my posts would tell you it’s just the opposite. No matter how you define it I have stated many times and even posted the advisory stating it’s both.

Since I posted both advisories to inform the community please explain how I am promoting ignorance.

 

[Mike1690]

Hmm,

(1) "Copycat weapon" means:
(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:
1. a folding stock;
2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
3. a flash suppressor;
(ii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;

Since this part specifically says rifle and the advisory says braced pistols are still considered pistols then wouldn’t none of that apply? Not trying to be a wisea$$ or deliberately argumentative. I’m just trying to figure out what this all means

 

[swinokur]

Correct but BATFE considers a braced pistol to be a rifle and therefore subject to the copycat provisions

 

[Lafayette]

Correct but BATFE considers a braced pistol to be a rifle and therefore subject to the copycat provisions

And then (saying that someone does the right thing and Form 1's their "braced pistol" with the ATF, it is now an SBR and subject to the copycat provisions per MSP in their interpretation of the MD law, because MD now says it's a pistol and a rifle and an SBR.

Time to find a good firearms attorney to put on retainer.

 

[swinokur]

I wonder what BATF will do when a Form 1 comes in <29 inches

 

[Kman]

I wonder what BATF will do when a Form 1 comes in <29 inches

Short list for a pooch killing.

 

[jcutonilli]

Hmm,

(1) "Copycat weapon" means:
(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:
1. a folding stock;
2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
3. a flash suppressor;
(ii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;

The term "Copycat weapon" is defined using the term "rifle". The problem is that the term "rifle" is not defined in that subtitle. MD has interpreted the term to include SBRs. Whether the term "rifle" also includes braced pistols is unclear.

 

[Occam]

Best I can tell, those of us who bought something like a CZ Scorpion micro pre-equipped with a collapsible brace ... still own the ungainly handgun that it was sold as, but cannot otherwise keep it without making the brace go away and become un-re-mountable. Or it goes to live on the farm across the river under the kindly stewardship of my friend the WV carpetbagger until this nonsense gets screwed back on correctly.

 

[Mike1690]

Clear as mud

 

[Mark75H]

MSP does not make laws, the legislature does. The legislature has decided that different sections of the law should have different definitions. This means that there are multiple definitions of what a handgun and rifle mean. An SBR is a handgun for certain sections and a rifle for other sections. Under current law a new SBR cannot be a "copycat weapon" as they are currently banned. This new advisory does not address how the new brace ruling affects this issue.

HQL live fire element

 

[swinokur]

Bingo.

Not in the statute but put in COMAR by MSP.

Imagine that

 

[jcutonilli]

I do understand. It’s both which is illogical to some people. Yeah reading my posts would tell you it’s just the opposite. No matter how you define it I have stated many times and even posted the advisory stating it’s both.

Since I posted both advisories to inform the community please explain how I am promoting ignorance.

I still don't think you understand. The reason people think the issue is illogical is due to faulty logic based on over generalizations. Certain sections of the law may define various terms differently. That does not mean that a firearm is both a handgun and a rifle because one section defines it as a handgun and another section defines it as a rifle.

The main issue seems to be whether braced pistols are prohibited by Criminal Law Title 4, Subtitle 3 (AKA AWB and LCM ban law). This subtitle defines "copycat weapon" (where the 29 in requirement comes from) and "assault long gun" (AKA enumerated list). It does not define "handgun" or "rifle". It is not possible for a copycat weapon to be both a handgun and a rifle because neither term is defined in that subtitle.

What we know is that SBRs are not "assault long guns" as MD allows short barreled versions to be bought and sold. It does not mean that SBRs are handguns as that term is not defined in the subtitle. SBRs can be "copycat weapons" as the definition of what constitutes a rifle has not been defined.

The problem with the new advisory is that it states that it does not reference the copycat weapon section so the applicability of the information to the copycat weapon definition remains unclear.

 

[jcutonilli]

Correct but BATFE considers a braced pistol to be a rifle and therefore subject to the copycat provisions

BATFE considers a braced pistol to be a rifle under federal law. It simply enforces state law as interpreted by the state. It is unclear if the state will adopt the same interpretation with respect to the copycat provisions.

 

[jcutonilli]

HQL live fire element

The live fire element is a regulation, not a law. While I would disagree with the state's interpretation of the law, it does have some basis.

a firearms orientation component that demonstrates the person's safe operation and handling of a firearm;

Actual operation of a firearm is one way to demonstrate safe operation.

The legislature does have an opportunity to reject changes/addition to the COMAR if it feels those changes/additions are inappropriate.