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  • 19mace92

    Junior Member
    Aug 2, 2022
    50
    Rehoboth Beach, Delaware
    While armed, I would think it is a bad idea to go “hands on”. If you are overpowered by them there is a probability of losing your firearm and potentially being used against you.
    I think that concern exists in any altercation.

    In my situation, my options were seriously limited. I had my own vehicle to my right, the fuel pump to my left, and the aggressor to my front in a narrow "corridor", essentially. There were people behind him that were not involved. I could have retreated behind my vehicle after climbing over the fuel hose but my family was in my car. Retreating would have left them vulnerable. I decided hands-on to be my only option at that moment.

    Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't have fought him long before drawing my weapon and firing a couple from the hip into his gut. Just not until I believed it was safe to do so.
     

    19mace92

    Junior Member
    Aug 2, 2022
    50
    Rehoboth Beach, Delaware
    One downside to that is if you do have to draw and fire, you have a reasonably high risk of fire/explosion from all of the gas fumes and muzzle flashes.
    This was my thought as well. Although it has been proven to be difficult to set most fuels on fire with even a lit cigarette, there is still a reasonably high risk to blow up the entire station and everyone in it.
     

    19mace92

    Junior Member
    Aug 2, 2022
    50
    Rehoboth Beach, Delaware
    How many 700 mile trips to FL with the family do you take without a load? And how much more is the extended range Lightning than a normal F150? And I doubt anyone with a couple of kids in tow is going to be hyper miling. Are we there yet? Shut up, Daddy's got to prove a point, lol.
    Although this is off topic, I feel I should mention: my diesel Tahoe got me, my wife, my two children (both <2 years old), and a fully loaded (floor to ceiling) third row/cargo area from the Delaware beaches to nearly the Georgia line on slightly less than a full tank (roughly 600 miles). We averaged about 10 over the limit and made a couple of fifteen-minute stops to change diapers, swap drivers, and feed the infant.

    I believe with any, presently available, electric vehicle, the same trip would have taken 3 hours longer with multiple long stops in places I don't want to be. The kids would have been screaming (rather than sleeping) because we would have been stopped for extended periods. Entertaining them would have been a real challenge.

    I'm not putting down electric. I'd buy one today if I believed it could compete with my diesel. We haven't even begun mentioning the long-term costs between them.
     

    Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    22,676
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Depends on your locale.

    As for environmental impact, your gas or diesel truck runs to somewhere around 35% efficient in converting the energy of that gas in to useful energy moving your truck around.

    A typical coal plant is around 43% efficient. Take out charging losses, transmission losses, etc. and you are back to around 35%.

    However, it is easier to clean the coal stack than your tail pipe. A gas truck probably runs around as clean as "dirty coal" (really I mean any coal plant built in the last 40 years and operating within EPA compliance for cleaning stack emissions). A diesel truck runs quite a bit dirtier (much higher NOx emissions, even with urea injection).

    Next, because of regenerative braking, list power use at idle, drive train losses which is typically in the 3-8% range for an electric vehicle and 12-20% for an ICE and the mechanical transmission they use depending on drive type, etc. an electric vehicle is roughly 50-75% more efficient at using energy at an ICE vehicle. So even on coal, a truck that is electric is going to be more efficient and better for the environment. Even with coal having higher CO2 emissions per unit energy than gas or diesel has, an EV powered by pure coal is going to somewhat better for the environment than an ICE.

    If the power plant is combined cycle, which most gas plants are, they are about 65% efficient. Round trip to electrons in your battery pack is ~50%. On top of that natural gas (other than methane leaks) is significantly less impactful on CO2 production per unit of energy than gas or diesel are. By a factor of around 3.

    BGE for instance as of summer 2020 (most recent one I could find) has an energy break down of 24% coal, 37% natural gas, 34% nuclear and abut 5% renewables (the later has gone up a lot in the last 2 years).

    Also even if you factor in the extra energy it takes to make an EV and its battery pack, most large EVs "break even" or better than break even on total CO2 emissions somewhere in the 30-60k miles range depending on your grid mix and driving style. That gets sooner the more the grid mix is nuclear, hydro and renewable heavy (potentially within about 15k miles if 100% renewable for something like the lightning. Even sooner than that if the manufacturing chain for the vehicle is also fully renewable).

    PS there are very, very, very few grids in the US that are predominantly coal anymore. Mostly because natural gas has been so cheap so long. Yeah, Obama era regulations had some to do with it, but very, very, very little. Cheap fracked natural gas has been predominately the reason. You could shut down your old coal plant, build a new natural gas plant, and build a natural gas pipeline AND break even on the cost of fueling the plant versus the cost of keeping the coal plant going within a decade easily. For an industry that typically calculates multi-decade CAPEX returns it was a no brainer for many utilities to switch. The national grid mix is only 21% coal these days. Down by more than half in a couple of decades. West Virginia is one of the very few that still is, and their electric rates show that (being significantly higher than the grids around them because of the very high cost of coal).

    Still powered mostly by other than renewables and unicorn farts. When I'm elected Benevolent Dictator if you own an electric vehicle you will be required to recharge it using only electricity produced by renewables.
     

    Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    22,676
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Although this is off topic, I feel I should mention: my diesel Tahoe got me, my wife, my two children (both <2 years old), and a fully loaded (floor to ceiling) third row/cargo area from the Delaware beaches to nearly the Georgia line on slightly less than a full tank (roughly 600 miles). We averaged about 10 over the limit and made a couple of fifteen-minute stops to change diapers, swap drivers, and feed the infant.

    I believe with any, presently available, electric vehicle, the same trip would have taken 3 hours longer with multiple long stops in places I don't want to be. The kids would have been screaming (rather than sleeping) because we would have been stopped for extended periods. Entertaining them would have been a real challenge.

    I'm not putting down electric. I'd buy one today if I believed it could compete with my diesel. We haven't even begun mentioning the long-term costs between them.
    My point exactly. I've got a gas F One Fiddy that with two of us and our luggage and toys in the back can make it from the current Stove Palace to the location of the future Stove Palace in TN and have 125 miles of range left when we get there. Typically two stops (less if I'm by myself) probably 30 mins total.
     

    lazarus

    Active Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    10,102
    This was my thought as well. Although it has been proven to be difficult to set most fuels on fire with even a lit cigarette, there is still a reasonably high risk to blow up the entire station and everyone in it.
    I meant more if you hosed someone down first. That's going to create a LOT of vapor.

    Generally shooting a gun at a gas station is probably an infinitesimal chance of igniting anything. I'd think if you hosed someone down first, you'd now be in "realistic, if small chance" territory.
     

    lazarus

    Active Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    10,102
    Although this is off topic, I feel I should mention: my diesel Tahoe got me, my wife, my two children (both <2 years old), and a fully loaded (floor to ceiling) third row/cargo area from the Delaware beaches to nearly the Georgia line on slightly less than a full tank (roughly 600 miles). We averaged about 10 over the limit and made a couple of fifteen-minute stops to change diapers, swap drivers, and feed the infant.

    I believe with any, presently available, electric vehicle, the same trip would have taken 3 hours longer with multiple long stops in places I don't want to be. The kids would have been screaming (rather than sleeping) because we would have been stopped for extended periods. Entertaining them would have been a real challenge.

    I'm not putting down electric. I'd buy one today if I believed it could compete with my diesel. We haven't even begun mentioning the long-term costs between them.
    It just depends on what you are trying to do. Yeah, the lightning would have added a fair amount more. And chargers are a crap shoot still (are they free? Are they all working when you get there?).

    Smaller EVs charge faster because smaller packs. Something like a Model 3, Ioniq 5, etc. will charge faster because it is a smaller pack.

    My FIL has an Ioniq 5. You get a realistic 300 mile range at the speeds he drives (which is also about 10 over). Just him, my MIL and typical "going away for a few days" type luggage on a trip down to FL recently from the Eastern shore and then back did about 300 miles on the first leg both direction. The rest of the time he was stopping and only putting on about a 70-75% charge (from around 10-80%). About 200-230 miles between stops (he charts EVERYTHING. We borrowed their 2013 Odyssey as our 2006 is LONG in the tooth and gets much worse mileage, we have a 2022 Sienna on order and have been on order for 6+ months. The amount of detail that man wants in his odometer log book at each fill-up is ridiculous).

    He did 3 stops on the way down and 3 stops on the way back. Total trip time for the ~950 mile drive.

    Stops for charging added about 2hrs total (they found 350kw chargers for 2 stops and one fast DC charger for the other).

    But that is versus about 90 minutes stopping for lunch and dinner plus a few rest stops and/or gas in there once or twice.

    So all told it added around 30 minutes to an already 15hr drive. Took about $110 of electricity round trip in charging according to him (I don't remember the exact amount has he quoted dollars and cents). Their 2020 outback for the same trip to go down and visit family would use about $250 of gas at current prices.

    Just tooling around the Eastern shore their electric bill has gone up about $20 a month, but it is saving them around $100 a month in gas.

    It probably isn't a net savings in costs unless an EV and gas/diesel were pretty close in price. But EV only $10k more if you own it for 10 years, probably will save that and more. Especially added in maintenance an ICE needs that an EV doesn't that can easily be several hundred a year (and all of the horror stories of replacing battery packs are exactly that, rare horror stories. A typical pack even driven hard, OTHER than the leaf that uses a passively cooled pack, has around 200-300k miles to about 80% battery capacity. More if you treat it gently, based on a lot of real-world user testing on a number of models for the kind of weirdos who are driving 40-50k miles a year like traveling salesmen).

    PS and yup, I also know people with EVs that HAVE run in to those horror stories of travels too of rolling in to charging stations with 4 other EVs charging/waiting to charge and only 2 chargers of 4 working and just regular high voltage DC, not 350kw chargers, and had to sit around for an hour before they could charge and taking a couple of extra hours on what should be a 5-6hr drive. I haven't jumped on an EV. I DO want a PHEV. That to me is the perfect balance. 95% of my driving is 40 miles or less on any given trip, so 90-95% of my miles can be all electric and charged from home and most PHEVs have 30-40 miles of range. The times I need to hop in and drive 100, 200, 1000 miles, I can just get gas to fill-up. Plus it is a lot more efficient as a hybrid for regular driving when I am on gas.
     

    Bluemoon

    Junior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 24, 2022
    26
    Benton LA Bossier Parish
    As a retired LEO I can tell you that gas stations are notoriously dangerous places to shop. I favor two diesel stops that employee off duty sheriff deputies for security 24 hours a day. Not your typical Stop and Rob.
     

    19mace92

    Junior Member
    Aug 2, 2022
    50
    Rehoboth Beach, Delaware
    I have been doing more research on training that could have helped me in my particular encounter in July. I think the only thing that kept me from pointing my gun at the individual was the risk of injury to innocent bystanders. But something would have still needed to be done if that individual decided to attack me that day.

    I am not a fighter. I've never had formal training in hand-to-hand combat or self-defense so I would have been taking a significant risk by doing so at that gas station. I stumbled upon the below training video which would have given me an opportunity to defend myself quickly and, mostly, avoid a fist fight (that I would probably lose) without pointing my firearm in the direction of any innocent people.

    I intend to set up a target and practice this training exercise this weekend with my airsoft training gun.

     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,136
    Yeah man things are crazy out there. All this reminds me of the time I was hitching and ended up at a town and then intercepted by the local sheriff, who immediately takes a disliking to me due to my unkempt hair, army jacket and generally messy appearance. The sherif however, offer me a lift to "make sure I am headed in the right direction". When in the car, I asked for directions to a diner, the sheriff tells me that there's a diner 30 miles up the highway.

    He then drives me to the outskirts of the town before dropping me off and telling me that Portland, where I had initially said he was headed, lies straight ahead. As the sheriff drives off headed back into the town, he spots me trying to return….

    Let’s just say things got a bit interesting after that.
    But...Your name is Jed, not John.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,136
    I have been doing more research on training that could have helped me in my particular encounter in July. I think the only thing that kept me from pointing my gun at the individual was the risk of injury to innocent bystanders. But something would have still needed to be done if that individual decided to attack me that day.

    I am not a fighter. I've never had formal training in hand-to-hand combat or self-defense so I would have been taking a significant risk by doing so at that gas station. I stumbled upon the below training video which would have given me an opportunity to defend myself quickly and, mostly, avoid a fist fight (that I would probably lose) without pointing my firearm in the direction of any innocent people.

    I intend to set up a target and practice this training exercise this weekend with my airsoft training gun.


    Might I suggest researching Krav Maga....
     

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