How to properly beat a horse. Please allot 16 hours. This is mandatory.

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  • dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,158
    Yes, I do. He is retired from NHS. Now, Once again, "If you know of any case where someone with a DD214 was rejected for the reason you believe, all ears".
    Yep, I do, also from NHS.

    Edited to add, this was in 2015.
     
    Last edited:

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,158
    Sick of those complaining about veterans having an exemption to the classes.

    At 17 while Vietnam was still going on, I wrote my first will. Until you have written a blank check to the American people that could cost you your life, you have no right to compare yourself to anyone that has served. This includes those that may not have touched a weapon after basic training.

    If you have a problem with the requirements(I don't think they are necessary for an enumerated right, either), then complain to the legislature. Belittling veterans because they may not have had training that you consider adequate, demonstrates a lack of character, IMO.

    Veterans that have served honorably, have demonstrated they support a cause greater than themselves, whatever their individual motivation. This is the only qualifier needed for veteran's to be granted preferential treatment for anything. Veterans are routinely given preference when applying for government jobs, etc...
    It is how the nation shows it's gratitude for voluntary service!

    This horse has been beaten beyond it's death!
    What about those with an administrative discharge, have they sacrificed any less than those with an Honorable Discharge? What about a General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions, lesser time served.

    I have an issue with ANY veteran that looks down on other veterans who do not have an Honorable Discharge, as being lesser than themselves.

    I also have an issue with the military exemption applying to those only with an Honorable Discharge, talk about creating a special class.

    BTW, I am a veteran that does not have an Honorable Discharge, does that make my service less than yours?
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,158
    I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking.

    Consider you've got Joe Schmo who decides he wants to get a gun for self-protection, but he's never even held a real firearm before:
    -- This man has never had any kind of training
    -- This man has no clue what muzzle safety is
    -- This man has no idea how to aim a gun
    -- This man is not familiar with the sound or recoil of a firearm
    -- This man is not familiar with even holding a real gun, much less controlling where it's pointed and when

    Now consider your average Army soldier:
    -- They spend a great deal of time learning how to safely handle and manage a weapon
    -- They spend a large part of basic training carting a rifle around
    We spent 2 of 8 weeks on BRM

    -- If/when they point their weapon in the wrong direction, they get "corrected" for it
    -- They spend time in classrooms learning about every aspect of the weapon - how it functions, how to clean it, how it comes apart, how it goes back together
    -- They spend time in the classroom learning the basics of marksmanship - how to sight, trigger control, how to clear malfunctions, etc
    -- They fire hundreds of rounds at the range to practice and hone marksmanship skills. This makes them very familiar with the sound, recoil, etc.
    We fired 150 rounds max in BRM at basic.

    -- They have to qualify by shooting to a minimum standard or above - if they fail to meet this standard, they get recycled through BRM/Basic Rifle Marksmaship
    -- They learn how to move while shooting/reloading
    We didn't in Basic.

    -- They partake in mock battles in order to know how to cover/conceal, and shoot accurately in the process
    We didn't do this in basic either.
    -- etc.

    This is just basic training. Then, every year it's required by Army regulation to go to the range and re-qualify on your weapon. The average soldier gets a metric crap-ton more than 16 hours of training. How much more training should they have?

    Someone with a DD214 has served a period of time honorably in the military.

    Ummm, a DD214 means they have served, it does NOT man they have served Honorably.

    Even people with non-combat/REMF MOS's have much more experience safely handling a firearm that your average bear.

    Regarding the training requirement of 16 hours for the MD W&C permit, that's a one-and-done proposition - you never have to re-take that training, so really, what's the difference?
    8 hours of refresher training to renew, so not "one and done"

    Let's hypothesize that MD has always been a Shall-Issue state and Joe Bag-O-Donuts got his W&C permit 15 years ago and hasn't had a lick of training since then? How is it any different than the training a former soldier got back in the day?
    Joe Bag-O-Donuts had to take an 8 hour class to renew starting after Oct 1, 2013, so, in the last 15 years, Joe Bag-O-Donuts has taken a minimum of 24 hours of REQUIRED training, to exercise a right. While guys with an Honorable Discharge (Don't get me started on the class warfare this becomes for those administratively discharged under Honorable conditions), don't have to take any mandatory training. Tell me again, who is more qualified, safe, aware, with a firearm.

    I know that arguments will be made that a rifle isn't a handgun. Fine. Gun safety is gun safety - the same rules apply to handgun, rifles and shotguns. Once those things are drilled in - and they are drilled in during Basic Training - you never really forget the basics and fundamentals of gun safety.
    LOL, you apparently have never been on a military range during annual regular requalification. And don't get me started about the same issue with LE, and the lack of firearms safety there as well.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,158
    Well….I get to have lunch with the infamous swinokur. :D

    I would never bring up the DD214 to the GA. It’s just the most glaring example that they don’t really value training.
    The don't value training, because the use the term Honorably Discharged, and never give any consideration to anyone with an administrative discharge, or a general discharge under honorable conditions.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,158
    You'll prolly never know a % like that, but would you like them to either a) remove the DD214 Honorable Discharge "loop hole" or restrict it to combat arms only? Or maybe even Verified handgun use only?
    Corrected, MSP chooses to require the DD214, as it is the easiest way to prove service, but there are other documents that could be used that actually show firearms training, retraining and the firearm/weapons system trained/requalified on.

    I mean, speaking for myself, my DD214 shows 0311 - Infantry, 0331 - Machinegunner, 8152 - Security Forces, 8154 - MCSF CQB Team; I have a certificate somewhere from Designated Marksman school... my DD214 shows 6th award rifle expert and 2nd award pistol expert.
    Your OMPF would show even greater detail, such as what firearms/systems you requalified on, the marksmanship level you qualified at, and the date. A much more precise item to use to determine if someone is "training qualified" for the W&C permit.

    I completed HTPO-08 From SCG International Risk, LLC (High threat protective operations - 8 day course) where we did ALOT of shoot/no shoot, protectee operations, and concealed carry stuff. Basic MCSF school has alot of shoot/no shoot as well.
    I mean, we could require specific MOS's if people are worried that much about it..... OR just leave it be, and recommend fellow vets do some follow-on training to brush up. Hell, if they pay for the ammo, I'll do some follow up training with em.

    Now all that above I got screwed because my unit didn't like me and processed my medical retirement as "General Under Honorable Conditions" so I can't use my DD214 to be training exempt, cause somehow all that training is nullified since it doesn't just plainly say "Honorable" (Now I'm gathering papers to go meet with a DAV lawyer to see about changing it, but until then I'll play MSPs/MGAs game)
    I know my experience is not the same, even my combat time (2004-2006) were different from newer rules. It just is what it is. The other point being, what is it like less than 1% of the population is a combat arms direct action veteran? I mean do we really want to play the restriction game?
    So, your training, and mine, are some how not the same qualification as those with an Honorable Discharge, which is the main issue I have with the "qualification" required of former military members (I hate to use exemption, even though that is what it is)
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    11,158
    One other point of order... we're assuming here that these 16 hr mandatory classes and 8 hr refresher classes actually provide truly functional knowledge. As garnered in that specific thread, these classes are essentially worthless anyway and just checking the box......
    Some are, some aren't, but how is a novice to know when they are being taught incorrect information? All of those that have complained here, are firearms people, and not what I would classify as novices.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    Jul 22, 2008
    12,358
    Glen Burnie
    We spent 2 of 8 weeks on BRM
    We fired 150 rounds max in BRM at basic.
    We didn't in Basic.
    We didn't do this in basic either.
    Ummm, a DD214 means they have served, it does NOT man they have served Honorably.

    8 hours of refresher training to renew, so not "one and done.

    LOL, you apparently have never been on a military range during annual regular requalification. And don't get me started about the same issue with LE, and the lack of firearms safety there as well.
    Were you Navy or Air Force? I fired a lot more rounds than 150 when I went through. Maybe you were special.

    I was clearly wrong about the 8 hour re-qual and I’m pretty sure I acknowledged that several pages ago.

    Line 24 on a dd214 states the type of discharge and I’m certain that is looked at upon submission. Clearly a dishonorable discharge is a prohibition.

    I’ve been on a lot of military ranges over my career - no one is being overtly unsafe. I see more safety issues at the public ranges I go to.
     

    Bob A

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    23,484
    Mandatory training is contrary to the history and tradition of the 2nd Amendment.

    Given the mentality in Maryland generally, it may become necessary to assuage the hoplophobic fears of the Kens and Karens, as they have been trained to panic by the Curran Mob.

    Therefore, Maryland must provide reasonable training for those who want it. It should be paid from public funds. Expenses such as travel and loss of income from work should be covered by the state, paid for from the taxes of the Kens & Karens.
     

    Tower43

    USMC - 0311
    Jul 6, 2010
    2,418
    Lusby, MD
    Corrected, MSP chooses to require the DD214, as it is the easiest way to prove service, but there are other documents that could be used that actually show firearms training, retraining and the firearm/weapons system trained/requalified on.


    Your OMPF would show even greater detail, such as what firearms/systems you requalified on, the marksmanship level you qualified at, and the date. A much more precise item to use to determine if someone is "training qualified" for the W&C permit.


    So, your training, and mine, are some how not the same qualification as those with an Honorable Discharge, which is the main issue I have with the "qualification" required of former military members (I hate to use exemption, even though that is what it is)
    i feel you bro. Never thought the ADSEP for medical would ever cause me problem, still get full VA benefits etc, worked for >30% disability as a fed employee.


    Its only affected me 2x now... MCFRS removed my hiring preference because it didnt say "Honorable" (but clearly I got hired lol) and now with MSP.... Its such a disaster.

    Like I said elsewhere though, I'm gonna go get my certifications to teach and do that as my "exemption" until I move out of this state in 14 yrs....
     

    DC-W

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    25,293
    ️‍
    Mandatory training is contrary to the history and tradition of the 2nd Amendment.

    Given the mentality in Maryland generally, it may become necessary to assuage the hoplophobic fears of the Kens and Karens, as they have been trained to panic by the Curran Mob.

    Therefore, Maryland must provide reasonable training for those who want it. It should be paid from public funds. Expenses such as travel and loss of income from work should be covered by the state, paid for from the taxes of the Kens & Karens.

    No, the people must be forced to train so they know how to properly resist tyranny and the mandatory 4-hour class on firearms safety and how guns work does that (at least mine does ).

    From Defendant’s Motion for Summary Judgment at District Court at pp. 25-26:
    3dfba88dd2130f32cbc4af049e35b076.jpg


     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 22, 2009
    50,429
    Bel Air
    No, the people must be forced to train so they know how to properly resist tyranny and the mandatory 4-hour class on firearms safety and how guns work does that (at least mine does ).

    From Defendant’s Motion for Summary Judgment at District Court at pp. 25-26:
    3dfba88dd2130f32cbc4af049e35b076.jpg


    Wait, I only heard that carrying mags > 10 rounds was a crime…

    The instructor didn’t say anything about tyranny.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Active Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    1,864
    Laurel
    What about those with an administrative discharge, have they sacrificed any less than those with an Honorable Discharge? What about a General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions, lesser time served.

    I have an issue with ANY veteran that looks down on other veterans who do not have an Honorable Discharge, as being lesser than themselves.

    I also have an issue with the military exemption applying to those only with an Honorable Discharge, talk about creating a special class.

    BTW, I am a veteran that does not have an Honorable Discharge, does that make my service less than yours?
    I do not look down upon other veterans with General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions. I have known quite a few good men that have them for various reasons.

    That said, I am aware that sometimes the type of discharge received is the result of a plea bargain.

    I have also previously stated that the training requirement should not exist for anyone.
     

    CMSGT

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2022
    213
    What about those with an administrative discharge, have they sacrificed any less than those with an Honorable Discharge? What about a General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions, lesser time served.

    I have an issue with ANY veteran that looks down on other veterans who do not have an Honorable Discharge, as being lesser than themselves.

    I also have an issue with the military exemption applying to those only with an Honorable Discharge, talk about creating a special class.

    BTW, I am a veteran that does not have an Honorable Discharge, does that make my service less than yours?,
    Administrative and General discharges cover wide and varied seperation conditions. In the USAF, General Discharges cover everything from pregnancies and dependency issues, failure to maintain weight and fitness standards, etc., also including drug usage, and/or excessive nonjudicial punishment instances. Some of those reasons, (especially drug and nonjudicial punishment issues), may impact evaluations by any entity, (government or civilian), requiring submission of a DD214 as part of their process.

    I would believe that, for the most part any General discharge that has Under Honorable Conditions, will not be a disqualifying issue for a MDWC Permit, but I could be wrong.
     
    Last edited:

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    51,864
    Not in Montgomery any longer
    The only thing that will disqualify you is a dishonorable discharge.But anything other than honorable makes you ineligible for the training exemption


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