How to properly beat a horse. Please allot 16 hours. This is mandatory.

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  • trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,957
    Glen Burnie
    Exactly. The DD-214 exemption just shows they aren’t serious about training as a safety measure.
    I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking.

    Consider you've got Joe Schmo who decides he wants to get a gun for self-protection, but he's never even held a real firearm before:
    -- This man has never had any kind of training
    -- This man has no clue what muzzle safety is
    -- This man has no idea how to aim a gun
    -- This man is not familiar with the sound or recoil of a firearm
    -- This man is not familiar with even holding a real gun, much less controlling where it's pointed and when

    Now consider your average Army soldier:
    -- They spend a great deal of time learning how to safely handle and manage a weapon
    -- They spend a large part of basic training carting a rifle around
    -- If/when they point their weapon in the wrong direction, they get "corrected" for it
    -- They spend time in classrooms learning about every aspect of the weapon - how it functions, how to clean it, how it comes apart, how it goes back together
    -- They spend time in the classroom learning the basics of marksmanship - how to sight, trigger control, how to clear malfunctions, etc
    -- They fire hundreds of rounds at the range to practice and hone marksmanship skills. This makes them very familiar with the sound, recoil, etc.
    -- They have to qualify by shooting to a minimum standard or above - if they fail to meet this standard, they get recycled through BRM/Basic Rifle Marksmaship
    -- They learn how to move while shooting/reloading
    -- They partake in mock battles in order to know how to cover/conceal, and shoot accurately in the process
    -- etc.

    This is just basic training. Then, every year it's required by Army regulation to go to the range and re-qualify on your weapon. The average soldier gets a metric crap-ton more than 16 hours of training. How much more training should they have?

    Someone with a DD214 has served a period of time honorably in the military. Even people with non-combat/REMF MOS's have much more experience safely handling a firearm that your average bear.

    Regarding the training requirement of 16 hours for the MD W&C permit, that's a one-and-done proposition - you never have to re-take that training, so really, what's the difference?

    Let's hypothesize that MD has always been a Shall-Issue state and Joe Bag-O-Donuts got his W&C permit 15 years ago and hasn't had a lick of training since then? How is it any different than the training a former soldier got back in the day?

    I know that arguments will be made that a rifle isn't a handgun. Fine. Gun safety is gun safety - the same rules apply to handgun, rifles and shotguns. Once those things are drilled in - and they are drilled in during Basic Training - you never really forget the basics and fundamentals of gun safety.
     

    jbrown50

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 18, 2014
    3,487
    DC
    Proof of training in order to exercise any God given right is unconstitutional, whether it's 16 and 8 hrs, police experience, military experience, etc., etc. It doesn't matter. The antigun zealots have shown over and over again that it's not about the training. The only reason for it is to attempt to deny that right.

    The Constitutional/permitless carry states have it right and are moving in that direction. Vermont has been permitless carry forever and there has never been any blood in the streets shoot outs there or in any other permitless carry state. That's because the vast majority of law abiding responsible hard working citizen gun owners have too much to lose to do stupid stuff.

    The fear and statism in the gun community needs to stop. There's simply no basis for it, it's irrational and it playes right into the hands of the zealots who want to turn this country into a Marxist state.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    47,562
    Glen Burnie
    Reading is fundamental.

    Once each…
    • Duty pistol
    • Off duty pistol
    • Shotgun
    = 3 qualifications

    Yeah. In your perfect style to embellish making people think you actually had quals 3 times a year. (Every 4 months)
    Instead it is 1 time a year with 3 things.
    Otherwise, why did you mention other departments qualed once a year?
    LOL
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    95,355
    Yeah. In your perfect style to embellish making people think you actually had quals 3 times a year. (Every 4 months)
    Instead it is 1 time a year with 3 things.
    Otherwise, why did you mention other departments qualed once a year?
    LOL
    Your lack of the ability to understand what you read, is not my problem. Others seem to understand it well enough.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,957
    Glen Burnie
    No LEO is exempt from “training”.
    The law simply recognizes their prior training as sufficient. They HAVE been trained. Both in firearms and law.
    The same could be said of prior service members with DD214's - minus the training in the Law. Basic handling of firearms and firearms safety is covered.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,743
    Westminster USA
    Training is not one and done. You need 8 hours of this for renewal for those without a DD214


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited:

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    47,562
    Glen Burnie
    Your lack of the ability to understand what you read, is not my problem. Others seem to understand it well enough.
    I understand once a year qual.
    Just like every other police agency and those officers too shot off duty pistols and shotgun.

    "I ate 3 times today. Appetizer, entree, and dessert."
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    60,338
    Bel Air
    I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking.

    Consider you've got Joe Schmo who decides he wants to get a gun for self-protection, but he's never even held a real firearm before:
    -- This man has never had any kind of training
    -- This man has no clue what muzzle safety is
    -- This man has no idea how to aim a gun
    -- This man is not familiar with the sound or recoil of a firearm
    -- This man is not familiar with even holding a real gun, much less controlling where it's pointed and when

    Now consider your average Army soldier:
    -- They spend a great deal of time learning how to safely handle and manage a weapon
    -- They spend a large part of basic training carting a rifle around
    -- If/when they point their weapon in the wrong direction, they get "corrected" for it
    -- They spend time in classrooms learning about every aspect of the weapon - how it functions, how to clean it, how it comes apart, how it goes back together
    -- They spend time in the classroom learning the basics of marksmanship - how to sight, trigger control, how to clear malfunctions, etc
    -- They fire hundreds of rounds at the range to practice and hone marksmanship skills. This makes them very familiar with the sound, recoil, etc.
    -- They have to qualify by shooting to a minimum standard or above - if they fail to meet this standard, they get recycled through BRM/Basic Rifle Marksmaship
    -- They learn how to move while shooting/reloading
    -- They partake in mock battles in order to know how to cover/conceal, and shoot accurately in the process
    -- etc.

    This is just basic training. Then, every year it's required by Army regulation to go to the range and re-qualify on your weapon. The average soldier gets a metric crap-ton more than 16 hours of training. How much more training should they have?

    Someone with a DD214 has served a period of time honorably in the military. Even people with non-combat/REMF MOS's have much more experience safely handling a firearm that your average bear.

    Regarding the training requirement of 16 hours for the MD W&C permit, that's a one-and-done proposition - you never have to re-take that training, so really, what's the difference?

    Let's hypothesize that MD has always been a Shall-Issue state and Joe Bag-O-Donuts got his W&C permit 15 years ago and hasn't had a lick of training since then? How is it any different than the training a former soldier got back in the day?

    I know that arguments will be made that a rifle isn't a handgun. Fine. Gun safety is gun safety - the same rules apply to handgun, rifles and shotguns. Once those things are drilled in - and they are drilled in during Basic Training - you never really forget the basics and fundamentals of gun safety.
    I've seen veterans who don't know which end the bullet comes out of. Most vets never do the stuff you think they do with guns
    I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking.

    Consider you've got Joe Schmo who decides he wants to get a gun for self-protection, but he's never even held a real firearm before:
    -- This man has never had any kind of training
    -- This man has no clue what muzzle safety is
    -- This man has no idea how to aim a gun
    -- This man is not familiar with the sound or recoil of a firearm
    -- This man is not familiar with even holding a real gun, much less controlling where it's pointed and when

    Now consider your average Army soldier:
    -- They spend a great deal of time learning how to safely handle and manage a weapon
    -- They spend a large part of basic training carting a rifle around
    -- If/when they point their weapon in the wrong direction, they get "corrected" for it
    -- They spend time in classrooms learning about every aspect of the weapon - how it functions, how to clean it, how it comes apart, how it goes back together
    -- They spend time in the classroom learning the basics of marksmanship - how to sight, trigger control, how to clear malfunctions, etc
    -- They fire hundreds of rounds at the range to practice and hone marksmanship skills. This makes them very familiar with the sound, recoil, etc.
    -- They have to qualify by shooting to a minimum standard or above - if they fail to meet this standard, they get recycled through BRM/Basic Rifle Marksmaship
    -- They learn how to move while shooting/reloading
    -- They partake in mock battles in order to know how to cover/conceal, and shoot accurately in the process
    -- etc.

    This is just basic training. Then, every year it's required by Army regulation to go to the range and re-qualify on your weapon. The average soldier gets a metric crap-ton more than 16 hours of training. How much more training should they have?

    Someone with a DD214 has served a period of time honorably in the military. Even people with non-combat/REMF MOS's have much more experience safely handling a firearm that your average bear.

    Regarding the training requirement of 16 hours for the MD W&C permit, that's a one-and-done proposition - you never have to re-take that training, so really, what's the difference?

    Let's hypothesize that MD has always been a Shall-Issue state and Joe Bag-O-Donuts got his W&C permit 15 years ago and hasn't had a lick of training since then? How is it any different than the training a former soldier got back in the day?

    I know that arguments will be made that a rifle isn't a handgun. Fine. Gun safety is gun safety - the same rules apply to handgun, rifles and shotguns. Once those things are drilled in - and they are drilled in during Basic Training - you never really forget the basics and fundamentals of gun safety.
    Read through the thread. You will find people with DD214 not supporting your assertions.
    There are lots of folks with DD214's who don't know which end the bullet comes out of.
    This shows that the exemption is not about making sure people are adequately trained, it's a political move.
    I don't think anyone should be forced to train, but I think people should want to train.

    I won't say anything further about this dead horse.
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    95,355
    The same could be said of prior service members with DD214's - minus the training in the Law. Basic handling of firearms and firearms safety is covered.
    Agreed completely. I simply did not speak to that subject because I do not have a DD214.
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    95,355
    I understand once a year qual.
    Just like every other police agency and those officers too shot off duty pistols and shotgun.

    "I ate 3 times today. Appetizer, entree, and dessert."
    Your apparent emotional need to follow my posts with personal critique, is something that maybe you should see a doctor about.

    The only time I mention or quote any post of yours, is to answer your personal comments about, or to me.

    Seek help. Seriously. Enough already.

    You bytch at me more than my ex-wife.
     
    Last edited:

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,957
    Glen Burnie
    I've seen veterans who don't know which end the bullet comes out of. Most vets never do the stuff you think they do with guns

    Read through the thread. You will find people with DD214 not supporting your assertions.
    There are lots of folks with DD214's who don't know which end the bullet comes out of.
    This shows that the exemption is not about making sure people are adequately trained, it's a political move.
    I don't think anyone should be forced to train, but I think people should want to train.

    I won't say anything further about this dead horse.
    I've been part of this thread since page 1. My first posts were 4 and 5. You didn't become involved until your first post at #18.

    I've maintained my position throughout. Yes, there are prior service people who are arguably bad with firearms. That's not really an indication or indictment of the training they absolutely received. It would be safe to say that there are very likely more than a few LEO's who are equally as inept - it doesn't mean that they didn't receive the training.

    I'm not sure what you think I've asserted. My only assertion to this is that a person with a DD214 absolutely has received far more than 16 hours worth of training with firearms, regardless of which branch they serve with, and if you're Army, I know from experience that you MUST qualify with a weapon annually.

    Regarding the training requirement, if you take someone who is new to guns, run them through 16 hours worth of training, how many of them will show any kind of real proficiency with a firearm? Is the training requirement and military exemption political, or is it simply yet one more roadblock the state can throw at people to maybe get them to not apply? Personally, I think you're giving our state lawmakers much more credit than they deserve.

    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence/stupidity." -- Hanlon's razor
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,321
    Carroll County
    I've been part of this thread since page 1. My first posts were 4 and 5. You didn't become involved until your first post at #18.


    My only assertion to this is that a person with a DD214 absolutely has received far more than 16 hours worth of training with firearms, regardless of which branch they serve with, and if you're Army, I know from experience that you MUST qualify with a weapon annually.

    This is a false statement.

    If you had read through the whole thread as you say, you would know the previous statement is untrue. The correct number for a number of veterans depending upon branch of the armed forces and time period served, can be as low as zero hours or more commonly, 4-5 hours.
     

    BurkeM

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2014
    2,358
    Baltimore
    Training is not one and done. You need 8 hours of this for renewal for those without a DD214
    For the average citizen: lather, rinse, repeat every 3 years for 50 years.

    Absurd.

    Why not make each Voter write a Term Paper of 20,000 words every two years before being allowed to vote?
     

    BurkeM

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2014
    2,358
    Baltimore
    Is the training requirement and military exemption political, or is it simply yet one more roadblock the state can throw at people to maybe get them to not apply?

    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence/stupidity." -- Hanlon's razor
    Yes, it was a Political decision intended to create a BARRIER to exercising an inherent Human Right.
     

    BurkeM

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2014
    2,358
    Baltimore
    1972 Handgun legislation:

    Prior to the General Assembly’s enactment of Article 27, § 36B, its prohibition on illegal handguns fell within the more general provisions of Md. Code (1957, 1971 Repl. Vol.), Article 27, § 36(a). The prohibition on dangerous weapons, including handguns, in § 36(a) was originally enacted by the General Assembly in 1886 and provided:

    Every person not being a conservator of the peace entitled or required to carry such weapon as a part of his official equipment, who shall wear or carry any pistol, dirk-knife, bowie-knife, slung-shot [sic], billy, sand-club, metal knuckles, razor or any other dangerous or deadly weapon of any kind whatsoever, (penknives excepted) concealed upon or about his person, and every person who shall carry or wear any such weapon openly with the intent or purpose of injuring any person, shall, upon conviction thereof, be fined not more than five hundred dollars or be imprisoned not more than six months in jail or the House of Correction.

    1886 Md. Laws, ch. 375.

    That language remained substantively unchanged until 1972, albeit prescribing an enhanced $1,000 fine and maximum three-year term of imprisonment:

    Every person who shall wear or carry any pistol, dirk knife, bowie knife, switchblade knife, sandclub, metal knuckles, razor, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon of any kind, whatsoever (penknives without switchblade excepted) concealed upon or about his person, and every person who shall wear or carry any such weapon openly with the intent or purpose of injuring any person in any unlawful manner, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than one thousand ($1,000.00) dollars or be imprisoned in jail, or sentenced to the Maryland Department of Correction for not more than three years.

    In 1972, Marvin Mandel demanded emergency legislation.

    Article 27, § 36B included a declaration of the General Assembly’s purpose in enacting the statutory scheme:

    (i) There has, in recent years, been an alarming increase in the number of violent crimes perpetrated in Maryland, and a high percentage of those crimes involve the use of handguns;
    (ii) The result has been a substantial increase in the number of persons killed or injured which is traceable, in large part, to the carrying of handguns on the streets and public ways by persons inclined to use them in criminal activity;
    (iii) The laws currently in force have not been effective in curbing the more frequent use of handguns in perpetrating crime; and
    (iv) Further regulations on the wearing, carrying, and transporting of handguns are necessary to preserve the peace and tranquility of the State and to protect the rights and liberties of its citizens.

    That's when Maryland first required a HANDGUN PERMIT.
     

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