How Many in the Group Have Their Concealed Carry? How Many are Looking to Get One?

[Biggfoot44]

At the risk of being rude go find a training company and get it.

[ Putting on my ball cap , with the logo of * Diplomatic , yet Direct * ]

There is a cliché truism , that is actually true :

Qualifying Ain't Training

The 16hr Required W&C Class , beyond the deliberate harassment aspect , is at the bottom line a Qualification. Checking a box for the beaurocrats .

Yes , many of W&C Class Providers have the Ability , and a Strong Desire to also provide Meaningful Training in addition. But with the current Manditory 71 page pdf , their hands are logisticly tied , to any meaningful degree .

Serious Training , and levels of competence such that a Wise & Prudent Person would seek , are something that must be done separately in addition to the 16hr Poll Tax .

[ Yes , a hot button subject , and fierce debate as to What that Wise & Prudent Set of Skills & Knowledge would look like , but essentially Universal recognition that the W&C shooting standards ain't it .]

 

[Mark75H]

Well said

 

[hogarth]

NRA offers that.

NRA Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home Course​

Short Description:
Teaches students the knowledge, skills and attitude essential for avoiding dangerous confrontations and for the safe, effective and responsible use of a concealed pistol for self-defense outside the home.

More Details:
Prerequisite: This course is for adult individuals who are not disqualified from possessing a firearm as defined by applicable federal, state, or local law and are of good repute and possess defensive pistol skills presented in the NRA Basics of Personal Protection In The Home Course.

Participants must also understand the basic legal concepts relating to the use of firearms in self-defense, and must know and observe not only general gun safety rules, but also those safety principles that are specific to defensive situations.

Prospective participants can demonstrate that they have the requisite knowledge, skills, and attitudes by producing an NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course Certificate, or by passing the pre-course evaluation.

Description: The course is divided into two levels. Level one is nine-hours and offers the essential knowledge and skills that must be mastered in order to carry, store, and use a firearm safely and effectively for personal protection outside the home. Students spend several hours on the range and shoot approximately 100 rounds of ammunition during level one.

Upon completion, students may choose to attend level two, which is an additional five hours on the range and approximately 115 rounds of ammunition learning advanced shooting skills. Time and ammunition requirements are minimum, and may be exceeded.

Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure and appropriate (level one/level two) course completion certificates(s)

I'm not entirely sure that PPOH is what light12pdr was referring to.

Talking out scenarios vs being in them are two very different things.

It's hard to quantify all the training I've done, but I place a VERY high value on the scenario work I have done. Besides the real thing, it is the ultimate test of hard and soft skills--and UoF knowledge tested in real-time--that there is.

Here is a still from a video of a kidnap scenario. In my head, that short girl WAS my daughter, and the dude in the OD jacket with the knife was a true child predator. I fired 5 UTM rounds at this guy, hitting with 4, including 2 in the face, while moving (in this still, round 1 had just been fired). The round I missed went over his head as he fell.

This is at Alliance PD range in Ohio (that's the shoothouse to the right). Joe Schmo NRA instructor is probably not gonna put on Sims or UTM classes with realistic scenarios AND dedicated role players just anywhere. My own experience is that you'll have to seek it out and travel for it. I'd love it if this was offered everywhere, but it just isn't. Perhaps VR will get to this--or a similar--point, but I don't think we're there yet.

 

[dblas]

I'm not entirely sure that PPOH is what light12pdr was referring to.

Talking out scenarios vs being in them are two very different things.

It's hard to quantify all the training I've done, but I place a VERY high value on the scenario work I have done. Besides the real thing, it is the ultimate test of hard and soft skills--and UoF knowledge tested in real-time--that there is.

Here is a still from a video of a kidnap scenario. In my head, that short girl WAS my daughter, and the dude in the OD jacket with the knife was a true child predator. I fired 5 UTM rounds at this guy, hitting with 4, including 2 in the face, while moving (in this still, round 1 had just been fired). The round I missed went over his head as he fell.

This is at Alliance PD range in Ohio (that's the shoothouse to the right). Joe Schmo NRA instructor is probably not gonna put on Sims or UTM classes with realistic scenarios AND dedicated role players just anywhere. My own experience is that you'll have to seek it out and travel for it. I'd love it if this was offered everywhere, but it just isn't. Perhaps VR will get to this--or a similar--point, but I don't think we're there yet.

View attachment 482188

There was a member here that provided simunition training in Odenton, there wasn't enough interest from the firearms community to keep him in business for the regular shooter, so he closed shop and moved. I think he is still doing simunition training, but for LE only now.

 

[hogarth]

There was a member here that provided simunition training in Odenton, there wasn't enough interest from the firearms community to keep him in business for the regular shooter, so he closed shop and moved. I think he is still doing simunition training, but for LE only now.

Yep. And as I mentioned upthread, people pay lip-service to wanting this type of training. They SAY they want it, but when instructors offer it, the classes don't fill.

People for some reason like to take a 14th carbine class (even though they're incredibly unlikely to use a carbine IRL) and make piles of empty brass rather than try some ego-crushing scenario-based training.

If you want to know what to practice, scenario training will serve as a great audit of your skills.

 

[miles71]

Yep. And as I mentioned upthread, people pay lip-service to wanting this type of training. They SAY they want it, but when instructors offer it, the classes don't fill.

I, and other instructors I know, have this same experience.

 

[BurkeM]

To build a facility, buy Simunition handguns, ammo, and INSURANCE, costs $$$$$.

The classes would realistically cost upwards of $500 per student per day.

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Or we could buy a dozen Airsoft guns, rent a hotel conference room, and charge $500 for simulation/scenario drills - because the INSURANCE costs $$$$.

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Or we could hold classroom sessions and run videos, critique them, and talk about "what if" for 6-18 hours at $50 per hour per student, and not see ten people show up all year.

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Can we get 50 (fifty) MDS members to COMMIT to attending a class? If so, we have enough talented and competent instructors who could make it happen.

 

[Biggfoot44]

People for some reason like to take a 14th carbine class (even though they're incredibly unlikely to use a carbine IRL) and make piles of empty brass rather than try some ego-crushing scenario-based training.

Two thoughts spring to mind :

1. We appreciate your tireless Journistic efforts , to take all that training to report back to us , and your blog readers on all those Courses .

But how many typical owners actually take Fourteen Carbine Classes ?

2. It's a lot more than 14 times harder to find General Public relevant , intermediate level enough to be worthwhile , open enrollment , Force on Force Scenario training with Sims .

 

[hogarth]

Two thoughts spring to mind :

1. We appreciate your tireless Journistic efforts , to take all that training to report back to us , and your blog readers on all those Courses .

But how many typical owners actually take Fourteen Carbine Classes ?

2. It's a lot more than 14 times harder to find General Public relevant , intermediate level enough to be worthwhile , open enrollment , Force on Force Scenario training with Sims .

Obviously I exaggerated for effect. My point is that people tend to train within their comfort zone rather than in areas of need. That's at the micro and macro level. People will spend hours trying to get their draw time from 1.2 to .99 seconds, but then never train malfunction clearances or weak-hand shooting. Let alone medical, legal, or combatives.

As for who should take FoF? EVERYONE. Because if you're already carrying a gun in real life, then you're already a participant in scenarios! If you think you're not advanced enough for scenario-based training, then you shouldn't be carrying a gun. We as a gun-carrying public should demand more of it, but when it is offered, we've got to do our part and fill the classes.

 

[trailman]

Not to promote, well what the hell, Lodestone up in PA does a two day Dynamics of a Gunfight Series, very good. Some of scenarios can be just a few seconds long. Force on Force using airsoft similar to what Hogarth is describing. ITs at the abandoned prison in Cresson PA. Been there the place is insane.

 

[INMY01TA]

It would be good for some MD instructors to get DC certification. When I have to get my MD recert it would be useful to have the ability to use the time to get a DC permit as well.

Merely a suggestion.

You can take an add on law class for DC. I got my DC certification from Freestate a year and a half after getting my Md certification from a two hr DC law add on class.

 

[calicojack]

I have had a Maryland and Florida CCW since 2019.

 

[hogarth]

Not to promote, well what the hell, Lodestone up in PA does a two day Dynamics of a Gunfight Series, very good. Some of scenarios can be just a few seconds long. Force on Force using airsoft similar to what Hogarth is describing. ITs at the abandoned prison in Cresson PA. Been there the place is insane.

Considering Jared Ross of Lodestone was one of the codefendants in this case of a student who was paralyzed after being shot by a LIVE FIREARM during force-on-force a few years ago, I'll take my $ elsewhere:

Man paralyzed in accidental shooting in the Poconos reaches $5.5 million settlement

Darin McMahon reached a $5.5 million settlement after a firearms instructor shot him in the neck with a Glock during a simulation firearms training.

www.poconorecord.com

 

[Bob A]

You can take an add on law class for DC. I got my DC certification from Freestate a year and a half after getting my Md certification from a two hr DC law add on class.

I was told that DC wold not accept my 16 hr training as the instructor was not DC certified. I did take a DC law zoom class, but never bothered with the qualification shoot, since it would have made no difference.

 

[miles71]

I was told that DC wold not accept my 16 hr training as the instructor was not DC certified. I did take a DC law zoom class, but never bothered with the qualification shoot, since it would have made no difference.

I looked into getting DC certified but was very expensive and let’s face it, where can you carry in DC even with a permit. I’d rather use the money to get better classroom supplies

TD

 

[Chat-Bot]

It's Army so forgive the grama.

 

[dblas]

I looked into getting DC certified but was very expensive and let’s face it, where can you carry in DC even with a permit. I’d rather use the money to get better classroom supplies

TD

There are quite a few places you can carry in DC.

 

[miles71]

There are quite a few places you can carry in DC.

But can you get to them? Seems to me there would be a lot of risk.

TD

 

[Art3]

The only places I would even want to GO to in DC are the museums...and I believe they are gun free

 

[Blaster229]

Most people couldn't give a crap less about training, let alone drop the coin for it. But 30 people will get together for a meet up somewhere to eat.