HGP Rejection

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  • Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    40,341
    Glen Burnie
    iirc there's an actual "Birth Certificate" and a certificate that's a "record of live birth". Which I think is worthless.
     

    Spaceballs

    Member
    Sep 7, 2022
    204
    Pennsylvania
    iirc there's an actual "Birth Certificate" and a certificate that's a "record of live birth". Which I think is worthless.
    There are both. Yes. (Barrack Obama can tell you all about this)

    Mine is the actual birth certificate. Not the certification of live birth. Oh and here is a fun fact...the official MD birth certificates are labeled "certificate of live birth" even though that is the birth certificate. A "certificatION of live birth" is the useless certificate of live birth but the 'cerificate of live birth' is the valid birth certificate.


    Can you tell this is a government operation?

    Other states no longer honor your original embossed birth certificate on the little card from before they switched to the full 8.5x11 sized sheet of paper around like 2010 or something (not sure of the year).

    My new one looks like my kids' original ones. My original one is not valid. The title and all information on both versions all matches.

    I'm not even sure why any government agency would want a birth certificate to prove anything for things like getting a driver's license. It's just words on paper. I could take anyone's and claim it was me.
     
    Last edited:

    1time

    Active Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    1,957
    Baltimore, Md
    Or just a clerical error. You are acting like they are denying a huge swathe of W&C Permit applicants.

    He’s acting like they made a mistake and instead of correcting it on their end they are making him go to the review board.

    I write a ticket to your name and then find out it wasn’t you that I stopped I void the citation. Not send you to court to plead not guilty.
     
    Last edited:

    BigCity

    retired undertaker
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 24, 2007
    2,913
    Carroll County
    Mine has a raised seal and is the original birth certificate. Not a copy. Not birth registration. The original yellow card with embossed seal. That was was what I needed to enlist, to get a passport, to get my first driver's license, etc. But now other states no longer recognize that original actual birth certificate with the embossed seal because MD replaced them with a new version and only the new version is valid. Found this out when I tried to get a PA driver's license. Confirmed it with MD.

    And yes, the new ones do cost $80 if you want them mailed.

    In person there is a nominal fee. But in person you have to go to the records office which...no. Just no. Especially extra no since this was a before I had a MD carry permit. I mean HELL NO. Had gone there for my kid's birth certificate years back, turned around and went right home. Open air drug market right inside the office.

    And that office is only open for limited hours during the weekdays and the lines for it wrap around the building.

    And I no longer lived anywhere near the place.

    To get the new version mailed you have to use a 3rd party service. MD doesn't handle it themselves. The 3rd party service charges a fee for themselves, charges a fee that MD charges them (which is higher than the walk up fee) and charges you for shipping, of which the only option was insured with tracking and signature required which all costs more. All in it was $80 each for my wife and I.

    I assure you that is what it costs. I explored every option to get it done cheaper aside from driving to the drug market where I could pick it up in person.
    Yould could have gone to Carroll or Baltimore County instead of Baltimore City.
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    13,147
    He’s acting like they made a mistake and instead of correcting it on their end they are making him go to the review board.

    I write a ticket to your name and then find out it wasn’t you that I stopped I void the citation. Not send you to court to plead not guilty.
    Unless we know how their system works that is apples and oranges. My guess final decision is sort of set in stone, I guess they could have started over on the error and tried to fast track it but anyones guess how long that would take. Things likle this are a reason why you appeal the final decision. It sucks they made a mistake and did a finalized packet but again the wheels of government are a machine that does not U-turn often.
     
    Jan 25, 2010
    122
    Harwood, Md.
    He’s acting like they made a mistake and instead of correcting it on their end they are making him go to the review board.

    I write a ticket to your name and then find out it wasn’t you that I stopped I void the citation. Not send you to court to plead not guilty.

    This is exactly what it was. I've gotten the CJIS used in this and I have no charges, let alone convictions that would prohibit me under MD P.S. 5-306.

    I was charged, plead guilty to and received PBJ for a disturbing the peace in Ocean City in 2009 when I was 22. Outside of that, I've got nothing. Heck, I couldn't even tell you the last time I received a speeding ticket. It's probably been 10+ years.
     
    Jan 25, 2010
    122
    Harwood, Md.
    **Update**
    After posting this thread, I decided to try and press this issue a little harder with MSP. I reached out to the investigator again, asking for more information and where I can get more results. My bases was that, Maryland is now a shall issue state and I felt that it was now the burden of the state to demonstrate why I could not have this permit and that I felt they had not done so in accordance to MD P.S. 5-306. I got a lot of run around from her and she was about as helpful as **** on a bull.

    I decided to email the Trooper in charge of my informal and ask for a little more clarity so that we didn't waste each others time at the hearing. My email is below.

    "

    Good Afternoon. Last Friday, 9 September I received a notification that my Maryland HGP was "disapproved" before receiving a letter of denial a few days later. In the denial it was indicated that I was denied for:

    1) A PERSON HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME INVOLVING THE POSSESSION, USE OR DISTRIBUTION OF A CONTROLLED DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE (MD P.S. 5-306(A)(3)).

    In calling the Licensing Division I was told that they believed the charge was related to someone with a different middle name than mine (Christopher Shane Mossburg, Vs. my name, Christopher Blaine Mossburg) but that that I would receive a letter in the mail with my CJIS report that would tell me more clearly.

    I've received the formal letter of denial this week along with said CJIS report. The CJIS report was limited to the two charges that I anticipated:

    • 1) TRK# 020005404285, 6/7/09 - Disorderly Conduct with a Guilt Verdict (Plea) to which I was given a PBJ
    • 2) TRK# 020005402815, 5/16/09 - Disturbing the Peace Hindering Passage which was Nolle Pros by the States Attorney's office.

    In an attempt to respect your time for our scheduled 8 Oct informal review, I am looking to understand:

    • If this denial was a clerical error as indicated by the MSP Licensing division call taker
    • What was the TRK/Case # that were grounds for disapproval?
    • Is there something not indicated in your letter or the CJIS findings that I am unaware of.

    Thanks for you for any assistance and have a good weekend,
    "


    The Trooper did reach back out and told me that he would have someone take a look at it and get back with me (this was on the 16th). Today, I received a call from one of his guys letting me know that they looked into it and will be overturning their decision without the informal to be on the lookout for my permit. He spent some time apologizing, etc etc and we got off the phone. Within just a few minutes I got the email from MSP that my HGP was approved and am looking forward to getting it in the mail.

    I know MSP get's a lot of heat in our community but I think it's important to give credit where credit is due. First Sergeant McCrory, was very "easy to do business" with and the Trooper that he put in contact with me this morning was as well. I was on the phone with my bosses, bosses, boss when he called and he actually called me 3 times in a row which allowed me to finally take the call. Really appreciate these guys making it right and getting things cleared up without waiting the additional weeks.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    18,893
    **Update**
    After posting this thread, I decided to try and press this issue a little harder with MSP. I reached out to the investigator again, asking for more information and where I can get more results. My bases was that, Maryland is now a shall issue state and I felt that it was now the burden of the state to demonstrate why I could not have this permit and that I felt they had not done so in accordance to MD P.S. 5-306. I got a lot of run around from her and she was about as helpful as **** on a bull.

    I decided to email the Trooper in charge of my informal and ask for a little more clarity so that we didn't waste each others time at the hearing. My email is below.

    "

    Good Afternoon. Last Friday, 9 September I received a notification that my Maryland HGP was "disapproved" before receiving a letter of denial a few days later. In the denial it was indicated that I was denied for:

    1) A PERSON HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME INVOLVING THE POSSESSION, USE OR DISTRIBUTION OF A CONTROLLED DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE (MD P.S. 5-306(A)(3)).

    In calling the Licensing Division I was told that they believed the charge was related to someone with a different middle name than mine (Christopher Shane Mossburg, Vs. my name, Christopher Blaine Mossburg) but that that I would receive a letter in the mail with my CJIS report that would tell me more clearly.

    I've received the formal letter of denial this week along with said CJIS report. The CJIS report was limited to the two charges that I anticipated:


    • 1) TRK# 020005404285, 6/7/09 - Disorderly Conduct with a Guilt Verdict (Plea) to which I was given a PBJ
    • 2) TRK# 020005402815, 5/16/09 - Disturbing the Peace Hindering Passage which was Nolle Pros by the States Attorney's office.

    In an attempt to respect your time for our scheduled 8 Oct informal review, I am looking to understand:

    • If this denial was a clerical error as indicated by the MSP Licensing division call taker
    • What was the TRK/Case # that were grounds for disapproval?
    • Is there something not indicated in your letter or the CJIS findings that I am unaware of.

    Thanks for you for any assistance and have a good weekend,
    "


    The Trooper did reach back out and told me that he would have someone take a look at it and get back with me (this was on the 16th). Today, I received a call from one of his guys letting me know that they looked into it and will be overturning their decision without the informal to be on the lookout for my permit. He spent some time apologizing, etc etc and we got off the phone. Within just a few minutes I got the email from MSP that my HGP was approved and am looking forward to getting it in the mail.

    I know MSP get's a lot of heat in our community but I think it's important to give credit where credit is due. First Sergeant McCrory, was very "easy to do business" with and the Trooper that he put in contact with me this morning was as well. I was on the phone with my bosses, bosses, boss when he called and he actually called me 3 times in a row which allowed me to finally take the call. Really appreciate these guys making it right and getting things cleared up without waiting the additional weeks.
    +1 for the MSP, although it should never have happened in the first place.

    You should have put your Bosses, Bosses, Boss on hold while you took care of what was really important. :D
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    9,773
    Harford County
    +1 for the MSP, although it should never have happened in the first place.

    You should have put your Bosses, Bosses, Boss on hold while you took care of what was really important. :D
    Maybe only +.25 for MSP for being friendly. They did misidentify him, despite having his ssn, DL, photo, and fingerprints. Good thing the other guy didn't have any warrants :rolleye12
     

    JohnnyE

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    5,070
    MoCo
    When I moved out of Maryland years back and tried to register my car in Pennsylvania I found out that my car that I had owned for several years was not titled in Maryland and didn't actually exist. (This was quite a shock considering it was parked in my garage)

    But you can't title a car in PA unless you show it was titled in another state first (when you move a car into PA)

    It took several months, a lot of bitching at state congressmen, and a heap ton of my daily time including multiple trips to the MVA to get it resolved.

    The MVA's official position was that the car wasn't in their database and it wasn't worth their time to resolve it. (An actual supervisor yelled that at me at one point)

    In the end I got a nice old lady who was retiring who no longer gave a crap about the company line. So she told me the truth. The MVA had gotten a new records system and they lost a significant portion of the vehicle records in the transfer. And didn't bother to recover them. They just wait until they show up on a case by case basis. And the only reason I was getting help was because a congressman reached out to the MVA's legislative liaison office where this lady worked. The MVA knows who butters their bread so they have a special office set up with competent people who fix problems to keep the legislators happy. (They didn't have any problems collecting my registration fees. But they never mentioned that I had plates with updated stickers that were literally not registered to a vehicle. Had I ever gotten pulled over the tags wouldn't have matched my car and the car would have likely been impounded.)

    So.... if you are pissed off enough, reach out to your (hopefully 2A friendly but good luck with that) legislator to see if they can expedite things for you. I'd be shocked if the MSP didn't have the same legislative liaison office type deal.

    This isn't even getting into how Maryland canceled all birth certificates about a decade back so I found that my original birth certificate was no longer valid and I had to pay $80 to have a new one mailed to me that says all the same stuff the original one says. At least they didn't say I didn't exist like they said my car didn't.

    So basically anything to do with state records in Maryland is total crap. They are sloppy. They are incomplete. They are disorganized. And they straight up do not care.

    This rant got away from me a little but the point was that MSP isn't likely TRYING to screw with the OP. State records are just so unholy bad that they can't avoid mistakes if they tried (and they don't seem to try)

    I never got a registration renewal in the mail. Called the MVA. My record had fallen out of the system and they never knew it. Lucky I didn’t get pulled over.

    Went to the MVA to get it fixed.

    No one apologized. You’re right. They don’t give a shit


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I'm happy you both got things worked out, especially you, spaceballs, since you were no longer an MD resident.

    About ten years ago our business had a credit with the Illinois workers' compensation system because we shuttered our only Illinois location mid-year. We asked for a refund and the state said we could apply the credit to next year's charges. We reported there was no reason to roll the funds over to next year because we left the state and there would be no future charges. At that point they told us to pound sand. I think they did that because, as out of state'ers, no Illinois elected official would bother to help us because we weren't constituents of theirs and thus not voters. We wrote off the few hundred dollars.
     

    ralph.mclean

    GOC (Grumpy Old Cop)
    Jan 27, 2018
    235
    Edgewater, MD
    Applied to be a Trooper in 1982. Passed everything they threw at me, and then did my polygraph. Corporal (Diggs?) from the Barracks in Forestville called me in and told me in person that they were turning me down. Advised me that it was for a, "pattern of theft." It seems that the polygraph examiner took issue with the fact that I drank free cokes while working at Wendy's in Oxon Hill without paying for them, even though I told him that all three of the managers knew about it and did not object. You work over a hot grill all summer and see if you don't need to hydrate a bit more frequently that the average guy. Anyway, took a job in DC a few months later. In February, I'll have been on the job for 40 years. I'll retire on my birthday next summer.
     

    Dataluss

    Junior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 9, 2022
    27
    Owings Mills MD
    Applied to be a Trooper in 1982. Passed everything they threw at me, and then did my polygraph. Corporal (Diggs?) from the Barracks in Forestville called me in and told me in person that they were turning me down. Advised me that it was for a, "pattern of theft." It seems that the polygraph examiner took issue with the fact that I drank free cokes while working at Wendy's in Oxon Hill without paying for them, even though I told him that all three of the managers knew about it and did not object. You work over a hot grill all summer and see if you don't need to hydrate a bit more frequently that the average guy. Anyway, took a job in DC a few months later. In February, I'll have been on the job for 40 years. I'll retire on my birthday next summer.
    Unfortunate story, leaning on ridiculous, if you ask me. You turned out, after, 40 faithful, successful years on the job with a different agency. Curious, however, how does that pertain to a MD HGP/CCW rejection? I'd surmise you'd have, and qualified for LEOSA.
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Active Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,086
    Ridiculous, that's probably how majority of everyone who takes a polygraph in 2022 feels about it.

    Glorified heart rate monitor. The sad part is the people who get paid to operate it have to act fake as shit about how great of a tool it is. LOL
     

    antco

    Active Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    5,834
    Calvert, MD
    Applied to be a Trooper in 1982. Passed everything they threw at me, and then did my polygraph. Corporal (Diggs?) from the Barracks in Forestville called me in and told me in person that they were turning me down. Advised me that it was for a, "pattern of theft." It seems that the polygraph examiner took issue with the fact that I drank free cokes while working at Wendy's in Oxon Hill without paying for them, even though I told him that all three of the managers knew about it and did not object. You work over a hot grill all summer and see if you don't need to hydrate a bit more frequently that the average guy. Anyway, took a job in DC a few months later. In February, I'll have been on the job for 40 years. I'll retire on my birthday next summer.
    So all the troopers that drink out of the barracks 5 gallon water cooler jug are thieves as well.

    /sarcasm

    Times sure have changes since 1982. Now, it's pretty much mandatory at the safety level to keep employees hydrated. I buy bottled water by the pallet.
     

    ralph.mclean

    GOC (Grumpy Old Cop)
    Jan 27, 2018
    235
    Edgewater, MD
    So all the troopers that drink out of the barracks 5 gallon water cooler jug are thieves as well.

    /sarcasm

    Times sure have changes since 1982. Now, it's pretty much mandatory at the safety level to keep employees hydrated. I buy bottled water by the pallet.
    Just a comment on how bureaucracy never changes, and bureaucrats, more than anything else.....
    Unfortunate story, leaning on ridiculous, if you ask me. You turned out, after, 40 faithful, successful years on the job with a different agency. Curious, however, how does that pertain to a MD HGP/CCW rejection? I'd surmise you'd have, and qualified for LEOSA.
    Just a comment on how the bureaucracy never changes, and bureaucrats, more than anything else.....
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    40,341
    Glen Burnie
    Ridiculous, that's probably how majority of everyone who takes a polygraph in 2022 feels about it.

    Glorified heart rate monitor. The sad part is the people who get paid to operate it have to act fake as shit about how great of a tool it is. LOL
    Well, it's more than just squiggly lines. A polygraph test is just part of the whole INTERVIEW.
    So you get your first couple of control questions " Is today Tuesday", "Is your name Mike?" Things we know are positively true. That's your baseline.
    Then come the other questions, did you ever steal? did you ever do drugs?.. The integrity questions. These are all written down, you answer those and sign it. I've seen as little as 10 and as many as 20, depending on why the interview is being given.
    The interviewer goes over these before hooking you up. All the while, he is trying to build rapport with you, becoming your "friend". You're nervous and eventually relax up to the guy. The goal is that it is both of you are trying to get you through this test/interview in order to get you the job.
    Now he hooks you up, then goes over the questions again. Even if no question shows deception, they usually always "find" something.
    After it's finished, he will look it over and pretend he's looking at something deceiving. Usually people lie about drugs and how much they actually used. Let's use that for example.
    So he leaves the room for 5 minutes and let's you sit there. The room is recorded and has video. So now he/they are watching you squirm.
    He comes back in and says " Jim. Everything looks ok except for this drug question." " Now we can do the test as many times as we need to get negative results and get you hired". "but is there something you aren't telling me about the drug question?".
    So now you have rapport with the guy and you feel like you can open up to him.
    "Yes. I tried cocaine x times".
    Congrats. You just confessed to lying.
    You sign another sheet and he sees you out. You get your denial letter later.
    It's a tool to get a confession out of someone. The squiggly lines do tell something, but not like your confession.
    Most people would be fine if they just stuck to their lie.
    "I dunno. Must be something wrong with your machine". Something.
    A Poly does have a purpose.
     

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