Help Identifying this Arisaka

[Kharstin]

Hello Everyone,

I am hoping I could tap into the vast wisdom of the C&R members here to help identify this Arisaka. It is 50 inches in length. I am not sure what model it is or caliber of ammunition it uses. Any help and any information at all is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

 

[bbrown]

Looks like it started its life as a Type 38, then got converted to a training rifle at some point, probably after exceeding its intended service life.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Looks like a type 38 carbine,6.5x50 with dust cover. The cleaning rod comes out by depressing button at bottom of front band, it does not unscrew. The mum is present but not completely defaced which is interesting. You do not see a lot of dust covers remaining and it may be numbered to the rest of the weapon, and there is some sort of rack numbers or caricatures on the butt-stock which are cool as well. There will be more marks right in front of the rear swivel before the pistol grip. Do you homework on that bayonet and rifle that's a real good catch especially if you find the last three numbers of the serial# on the stock in barrel channel, extractor, bolt parts dust cover etc. If the action screws have been hard staked I would not recommend taking apart or changing anything to the carbine other than a good cleaning. 6.5 Jap is out there for ammo but you may have to dig. Nice One!

 

[zoostation]

What do the kanji letters over the mum mean?

 

[Augie]

Need a pic of the serial number, will be under the dust cover which slides off with the bolt. I'll bet it is preceded by 00 which designates a rifle taken out of service for training use.
The Mum has been canceled, also done when taken out of service.

 

[Doco Overboard]

I don't know could they be Chinese? I did a kanji lookup and didn't find anything, looks like gibberish or all the same to me. To hard for me to decipher. I don't think the Japs would have placed them on the mum directly, below it I have seen them but not on top like that. Maybe its a rudimentary attempt to deface it. Alot of type 38's found their way to the Chinese but a lot were also re-chambered and had a magazine filler. Interesting nonetheless.

 

[MilsurpDan]

Like Bbrown and Augie said, it's a Type 38 that was taken out of service and used as a training rifle. Need a better picture of the stock markings to see if they say which school it was used in. Type 38's were matched with an assembly number on the underside of the receiver. The serial number on the side of the receiver won't usually match.

The bayonet looks like an early style Type 30 bayonet.

Also, I wouldn't try to shoot it. Many if not most Type 38's taken out of service and used as trainers were taken out because they were worn out or unserviceable. They were either not meant to be fired at all, or just fired with special blank cartridges.

 

[Kharstin]

Thank you so much for all the great information so far!

Additional stock and serial number photos requested attached.

 

[Augie]

Yup double OO, school rifle.

 

[KH195]

Early Koishikawa Arsenal T38 school gun as others have already mentioned. The kanji in between the two gas vents on the receiver translates to "for education". The kanji on the stock would likely tell you the name of the school or university it went to, but they look pretty worn and may not be readable. If you post a nice clear pic over in the Japanese section on gunboards.com there are several members that can translate it (if it's still legible). That specific mum cancellation is a new one to me though, most school guns ive handled have either the Koishikawa/Kokura logo overstamp, the series of zeros around the border, or the elongated 'M'. The one on yours may have a specific meaning as well, I'll check my books when I can (going to be about two weeks, in France on vacation right now).

 

[zoostation]

Early Koishikawa Arsenal T38 school gun as others have already mentioned. The kanji in between the two gas vents on the receiver translates to "for education". The kanji on the stock would likely tell you the name of the school or university it went to, but they look pretty worn and may not be readable. If you post a nice clear pic over in the Japanese section on gunboards.com there are several members that can translate it (if it's still legible). That specific mum cancellation is a new one to me though, most school guns ive handled have either the Koishikawa/Kokura logo overstamp, the series of zeros around the border, or the elongated 'M'. The one on yours may have a specific meaning as well, I'll check my books when I can (going to be about two weeks, in France on vacation right now).

I'm thinking the strike over the mum must have something to do with it being removed from active service or transferred to an allied force, or both. Otherwise I would think any striking over of the mum on a gun that stayed in imperial service would likely be construed as an insult to the emperor.

 

[Kharstin]

Better photos of characters on stock...

I tried to use the lighting to help the characters carved in tone stock show up better but they are pretty worn....

 

[Doco Overboard]

Whats the difference between a school gun and a trainer? I had read in the past that trainers were regular type 38's and some school guns were often put togethers and had a mark near the mum with two or three zero prefix like the one discussed and some even interfaced inside the chrysanthemum itself but lightly struck. Do the marks on the front ring indicate a school or sale to a foreign country? Thanks for sharing your Arisaka knowledge they are strangely interesting and the earlier ones very well built.

 

[Kharstin]

Better photos of characters on stock...

Stock

 

[KH195]

Whats the difference between a school gun and a trainer? I had read in the past that trainers were regular type 38's and some school guns were often put togethers and had a mark near the mum with two or three zero prefix like the one discussed and some even interfaced inside the chrysanthemum itself but lightly struck. Do the marks on the front ring indicate a school or sale to a foreign country? Thanks for sharing your Arisaka knowledge they are strangely interesting and the earlier ones very well built.

In Arisaka terminology a "school gun" refers to a regular issue rifle (such as a T38, T38 carbine, T30, even T44s), that saw enough use to be deemed no longer fit for regular military service. They were pulled from service, typically rebuilt with serviceable parts available from like rifles (which is why the vast majority are mismatched), and marked to show the removal from military service (mum cancellation, addition of the double/triple zero to the serial number, etc.). They will typically still have rifled barrels and in many cases may still be fine to shoot (still have checked by a gunsmith!). They were given to boys schools and universities for training use.

"Trainers" are rifles that were built from the start as blank firing guns, never intended to fire standard ammunition. They are often smoothbore, made with cast receivers, and would fire either blanks or wooden bullets. Some "clicker" trainers were built too that only fired caps. The scary thing is that many of our troops bringing these home did not know the difference between the two...I've seen quite a few blank firing trainers that have been sporterized, meaning somone was probably shooting standard ammo out of them (as many of the trainer models can still chamber a live round).

 

[Doco Overboard]

Thanks KH195, that 73 tag with the arabic numerals, was that applied when the rifle was in use? or did that come later maybe.

 

[KH195]

Thanks KH195, that 73 tag with the arabic numerals, was that applied when the rifle was in use? or did that come later maybe.

That was most likely added during its time as a school gun, basically like a rack number. A good number of school guns and trainers have little metal tags like that one on them, but I've never seen a regular issue rifle with a tag like that. Typically when service rifles are marked with unit/rack numbers it was done in paint.