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  • niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    What safes are these? IMO a good safe will prevent theft and be resistant to a fire (30-45 min). I've not found any safes in the price range that can do that. $2500+ is what I would say is a good safe. 12ga steel pretty much blows after seeing all the pictures of the safes opened with a crowbar and/or axe.

    My Sturdy safe (fire lined) was $2080 delivered. Its not very big but I only plan to put the expensive boom sticks and jewelry in there, everything else, cheaper 22LRs and such, stays in my little stack on cabinet. I should get it tomorrow and will do my best to get pics up over the weekend.

    My next safe purchase will be a used TRTL-30 or TL-30 depending on what I can find :D
     

    niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    Just came in. . .and its bigger than I expected. . .and it doesnt fit through the closet door where I want to put it :lol2: So, tomorrow is officially sawzall day! I am going to make the existing 24" closet door into a 30 inch closet door and install an exterior door with a push button combo door knob to keep the honest people out (will likely take me longer than just tomorrow to do). If the not so honest get through the steel closet door then they come face to face with the Sturdy shoehorned into the little closet. :)

    8563800528_ddb058c3d0.jpg

    8562694275_33448123ec.jpg

    8563798958_b374ba72af.jpg

    8562691943_c850f41a51.jpg


    If anyone wants any specific closeups just post and I will try and get pictures.

    And its a 2723 Fire Lined
     

    niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    Tractor Supply report:
    I stopped by today and they had everything from the large Cannon safes ($999) all the way down to the basic Stack-On style light gauge cabinet. I think there were 4 different Cannon safes the largest being $999.

    I will be starting a new thread sometime this week on how I moved and set my Sturdy in place.
     

    Atec

    Active Member
    Sep 11, 2010
    1,921
    Maryland
    Just came in. . .and its bigger than I expected. . .and it doesnt fit through the closet door where I want to put it :lol2: So, tomorrow is officially sawzall day! I am going to make the existing 24" closet door into a 30 inch closet door and install an exterior door with a push button combo door knob to keep the honest people out (will likely take me longer than just tomorrow to do). If the not so honest get through the steel closet door then they come face to face with the Sturdy shoehorned into the little closet. :)

    8563800528_ddb058c3d0.jpg

    8562694275_33448123ec.jpg

    8563798958_b374ba72af.jpg

    8562691943_c850f41a51.jpg


    If anyone wants any specific closeups just post and I will try and get pictures.

    And its a 2723 Fire Lined

    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Still waiting on mine :tdown:
     

    wanman75

    Junior Member
    Jan 17, 2012
    88
    Gaithersburg, MD
    Just came in. . .and its bigger than I expected. . .and it doesnt fit through the closet door where I want to put it :lol2: So, tomorrow is officially sawzall day! I am going to make the existing 24" closet door into a 30 inch closet door and install an exterior door with a push button combo door knob to keep the honest people out (will likely take me longer than just tomorrow to do). If the not so honest get through the steel closet door then they come face to face with the Sturdy shoehorned into the little closet. :)

    8563800528_ddb058c3d0.jpg

    8562694275_33448123ec.jpg

    8563798958_b374ba72af.jpg

    8562691943_c850f41a51.jpg


    If anyone wants any specific closeups just post and I will try and get pictures.

    And its a 2723 Fire Lined

    I was getting ready to pull the trigger on this safe. Any complaints so far?
     

    bulletdrop

    Junior Member
    Jul 23, 2011
    34
    Southern Maryland
    If your gonna buy a safe then buy something quality. Like a Liberty. If your going cheap then you don't really care what happens to your weapons. I have a Liberty Fat Boy Jr and it still was only the price of one of my AR's. For the protection and piece of mind...not bad. Considering it is full! And all my toys are high end! You can even order it through Cabelas and have it delivered to your door for $200. Can't beat it! $1200+$200 for a quality 48 gun safe
     

    thebullpupkid

    Member
    Feb 6, 2009
    632
    Right near the beach!
    If your gonna buy a safe then buy something quality. Like a Liberty. If your going cheap then you don't really care what happens to your weapons. I have a Liberty Fat Boy Jr and it still was only the price of one of my AR's. For the protection and piece of mind...not bad. Considering it is full! And all my toys are high end! You can even order it through Cabelas and have it delivered to your door for $200. Can't beat it! $1200+$200 for a quality 48 gun safe

    That 12 gauge tin can won't stop anyone who's serious. I'll take the Sturdy safe all day long over a low end Liberty like the one you mention. At least Sturdy will upgrade the body if you are willing to pay for it. Get anything less than the Liberty National series and you're fooling yourself. Frankly the National is only 7 gauge anyway which is only slightly better than the fat boy. The reality is if you want a safe that will stop a real burglar, you need a TL-15 rated safe at a minimum. Any safe that has a body measured in gauges is only designed to stop the casual smash and grabber or the curious teenager. They are polite suggestions to the professional burglar.
     

    niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    I was getting ready to pull the trigger on this safe. Any complaints so far?

    It has been great, I open it 2-3 times a day. I can get into that combo lock really quick now :D

    I have my two old light gauge (stack on type) gun cabinets as ammo holders now. I figured I might as well make they robber at least have to try a little bit to get to the ammo instead of just carrying off the ammo cans at will.

    I want to get something more substantial for the ammo storage (have as much if not more invested in ammo as I do firearms :lol2:) but I havent figured out what I want to get. Anyone have any ideas?

    Ideally I want a double door mosler fire cabinet to put the ammo in and a TRTL-30 for the firearms. :D But with the furloughs in full swing I will have to wait for that, unless I find a great deal on a mosler. . . and they take credit cards! :) Really I want a REALLY big TRTL-30, like this monster: http://www.lackasafe.com/products/used-safes-specials/used-jewelersx6-6333-tl30x6-high-security-safe Then I could put just about everything in one container.

    And I did fit it in the closet :cool: Try to pry on it in there!

    DSC02249 by NiftyVT, on Flickr

    I also put an outlet inside and bolted it down with really big hardware :)

    DSC02267 by NiftyVT, on Flickr

    Full thread on my install.
    http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=114488
     

    mrozowjj

    Active Member
    Apr 13, 2008
    2,247
    Seattle-ish WA
    That 12 gauge tin can won't stop anyone who's serious. I'll take the Sturdy safe all day long over a low end Liberty like the one you mention. At least Sturdy will upgrade the body if you are willing to pay for it. Get anything less than the Liberty National series and you're fooling yourself. Frankly the National is only 7 gauge anyway which is only slightly better than the fat boy. The reality is if you want a safe that will stop a real burglar, you need a TL-15 rated safe at a minimum. Any safe that has a body measured in gauges is only designed to stop the casual smash and grabber or the curious teenager. They are polite suggestions to the professional burglar.

    That's pretty much what I found while doing research a while ago. I've been lusting after a Sturdy ever since.
     

    mrozowjj

    Active Member
    Apr 13, 2008
    2,247
    Seattle-ish WA
    It has been great, I open it 2-3 times a day. I can get into that combo lock really quick now :D

    I have my two old light gauge (stack on type) gun cabinets as ammo holders now. I figured I might as well make they robber at least have to try a little bit to get to the ammo instead of just carrying off the ammo cans at will.

    I want to get something more substantial for the ammo storage (have as much if not more invested in ammo as I do firearms :lol2:) but I havent figured out what I want to get. Anyone have any ideas?

    Ideally I want a double door mosler fire cabinet to put the ammo in and a TRTL-30 for the firearms. :D But with the furloughs in full swing I will have to wait for that, unless I find a great deal on a mosler. . . and they take credit cards! :) Really I want a REALLY big TRTL-30, like this monster: http://www.lackasafe.com/products/used-safes-specials/used-jewelersx6-6333-tl30x6-high-security-safe Then I could put just about everything in one container.

    And I did fit it in the closet :cool: Try to pry on it in there!

    DSC02249 by NiftyVT, on Flickr

    I also put an outlet inside and bolted it down with really big hardware :)

    DSC02267 by NiftyVT, on Flickr

    Full thread on my install.
    http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=114488


    How the hell did you move that sucker.
     

    niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    Wooden dowels I had.
    It was actually really easy to move and turn. The hard part was getting it all the way into the corner after we got the dowels out from underneath it.

    DSC02242 by NiftyVT, on Flickr
     

    WheelHead

    Head of the wheel
    Dec 6, 2011
    1,817
    Snow Hill
    I've been doing research for a few month about a new safe to replace my old. Sturdy is on my short list if not at the top. Also looked at a Brown. I just can't afford the Graffunder which was on my wish list. Anything thinner than 10ga and your just kidding yourself. Sturdy has all kinds of add on's and you can design one of the things pretty thick. Remember we are really only talking RSC here and not real safes. Look at all the images of Liberty safes hacked into on Google images. Kind of disturbing....
     

    NickZac

    Active Member
    Aug 12, 2007
    3,412
    Baltimore, MD
    Cheap out on a safe and get cheap performance.

    If someone wants a safe that gives actual break-in protection, don't buy anything labeled "gun safe"...the armor on most models are pretty much there for moral support. In reality, they suck incredibly and can be quickly defeated by the dumbest criminals with the crudest of tools. They also have fire protection that often will not protect the insides from a house fire (fires can go well over 1200 degrees and heat exposure will often exceed 20-30 minutes). If buying a giant safe and it’s only a few hundred pounds or the armor is measured in gauge (mild-gauge sheet metal), it’s going to be easily defeated and it is NOT appropriate for high-dollar valuables (and generally not eligible for insurance discounts and many insurers will not insure valuables in such a safe). While there is nothing wrong with someone buying this type of safe, users should go in with the understanding that these types of safes generally provide subpar fire protection and virtually zero theft protection. Many makers are great at distracting from the fact that the safe performs poorly in regards to the two main things safes are supposed to do. They dress safes up with all sorts of fancy features. But fancy features don’t keep criminals or fires from getting inside…

    Going with a used tool-resistant plate safe or high-density composite safe is the only way to go if when putting a lot of expensive things inside and you want real break-in protection and real fire protection in which independent testing establishes the safe’s abilities, IMHO. Brown makes an incredible quality safe, and even their B and C rate models are incredibly tough. The reason that people who advocate getting a high-security safe are so passionate about it is because of the difference between gun safes and the high-security safes…it is such an extreme difference it is hard to capture in text.

    It’s just like guns. A Sig 226 is far more expensive than the High Point, but the difference in quality is why. A cheap safe usually means minimal protection in which perceived protection may be more than actual protection. A good safe is an investment…a cheap safe is false confidence. A tool-resistant safe will last centuries, and it’s true peace of mind.



    As far as Sturdy Safe goes, I’ve asked why it is not tested by the UL, and have gotten a few different answers. But 7 gauge is still .18 inches, which is too thin to even get a B-rating. Their 4 gauge upgrade is also not thick enough to qualify for a B-rating as it is slightly under a quarter inch. Is that enough armor for most? Personal call…for me, it’s not. A TL-30 composite safe may have over 4 inches of armor all-around of both hardened steel plates and high-density composites. I would be more receptive if the Sturdy upgrades did not place the safe in such a high price-point. Yes, Sturdy is without doubt better than most of the gun safes, but once the upgrades start, you are getting to the price-point of high-security safes such as the AMVAULT and the AMVAULT is 100 times the safe of any ‘gun safe’. Out of the box the AMVAULT is TL-15 or TL-30 and it’s fire-rated for two hours at 1850 degrees…in other terms, no upgrades are needed because it comes with all one will need from the start. If storing high-dollar valuables, 7 gauge and 4 gauge is not enough…you need measurements in inches.




    If your gonna buy a safe then buy something quality. Like a Liberty. If your going cheap then you don't really care what happens to your weapons. I have a Liberty Fat Boy Jr and it still was only the price of one of my AR's. For the protection and piece of mind...not bad. Considering it is full! And all my toys are high end! You can even order it through Cabelas and have it delivered to your door for $200. Can't beat it! $1200+$200 for a quality 48 gun safe

    I don’t want to come off as a jerk, but to be blunt, the reason the Liberty cost less than a single AR is because of what the safe is, or isn’t. The Liberty is made out of 11-gauge steel and has a fire rating that is below that of many house fires in terms of both duration and temperature. In other terms, the armor that stands between a criminal and the safe’s contents is around .11 inches, or about the thickness of two pennies. A safe in this class can be opened in a few minutes, and by people of marginal skill…there are quite a few pictures online of Liberty safes that had the side walls essentially knocked out by something such as a pointed axe or hammer, and plenty of tutorials available on YouTube that show how to penetrate safes in this class.

    Liberty’s flagship models in the 5-7 grand ranges still only have 1200 degree fire protection and the armor is ridiculously thin relative to other safes in the price range…at this point, the Liberty safes costs MORE than the AMVULT. Literally, National Security Magnum is around $5,000 to $6,000 (http://www.deansafe.com/nase40guhoan.html)…and the AMVAULT of similar size in a TL-30 is only $3,500 (http://www.westcoastsafes.com/cf552...s-p-69.html?osCsid=rrl6akposhqrm9ibhgibas0ao2). (notice the AMVAULT weighs over 2x that of the Liberty). So well over a grand less for over 10 TIMES the armor and a much better fire rating. The Liberty has all the fancy bells and whistles and it is really damned pretty...but the AMVAULT has the armor that will keep valuables in, and people/fire out.

    For people with a lot of valuables inside of it as in tons of high-end stuff, a high-security, tool-resistant safe is hands-down the best way to go.

    Actual UL testing of TL-15 and TL-30 safes shows just how intense these attacks are, and they show just how massive of a difference there is between a ‘gun safe’ and a high-security safe. Most gun safes would not even last a minute as one can literally saw them in half with a cordless saw and a standard blade.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860
     

    niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    Cheap out on a safe and get cheap performance.

    If someone wants a safe that gives actual break-in protection, don't buy anything labeled "gun safe"...the armor on most models are pretty much there for moral support. In reality, they suck incredibly and can be quickly defeated by the dumbest criminals with the crudest of tools. They also have fire protection that often will not protect the insides from a house fire (fires can go well over 1200 degrees and heat exposure will often exceed 20-30 minutes). If buying a giant safe and it’s only a few hundred pounds or the armor is measured in gauge (mild-gauge sheet metal), it’s going to be easily defeated and it is NOT appropriate for high-dollar valuables (and generally not eligible for insurance discounts and many insurers will not insure valuables in such a safe). While there is nothing wrong with someone buying this type of safe, users should go in with the understanding that these types of safes generally provide subpar fire protection and virtually zero theft protection. Many makers are great at distracting from the fact that the safe performs poorly in regards to the two main things safes are supposed to do. They dress safes up with all sorts of fancy features. But fancy features don’t keep criminals or fires from getting inside…

    Going with a used tool-resistant plate safe or high-density composite safe is the only way to go if when putting a lot of expensive things inside and you want real break-in protection and real fire protection in which independent testing establishes the safe’s abilities, IMHO. Brown makes an incredible quality safe, and even their B and C rate models are incredibly tough. The reason that people who advocate getting a high-security safe are so passionate about it is because of the difference between gun safes and the high-security safes…it is such an extreme difference it is hard to capture in text.

    It’s just like guns. A Sig 226 is far more expensive than the High Point, but the difference in quality is why. A cheap safe usually means minimal protection in which perceived protection may be more than actual protection. A good safe is an investment…a cheap safe is false confidence. A tool-resistant safe will last centuries, and it’s true peace of mind.



    As far as Sturdy Safe goes, I’ve asked why it is not tested by the UL, and have gotten a few different answers. But 7 gauge is still .18 inches, which is too thin to even get a B-rating. Their 4 gauge upgrade is also not thick enough to qualify for a B-rating as it is slightly under a quarter inch. Is that enough armor for most? Personal call…for me, it’s not. A TL-30 composite safe may have over 4 inches of armor all-around of both hardened steel plates and high-density composites. I would be more receptive if the Sturdy upgrades did not place the safe in such a high price-point. Yes, Sturdy is without doubt better than most of the gun safes, but once the upgrades start, you are getting to the price-point of high-security safes such as the AMVAULT and the AMVAULT is 100 times the safe of any ‘gun safe’. Out of the box the AMVAULT is TL-15 or TL-30 and it’s fire-rated for two hours at 1850 degrees…in other terms, no upgrades are needed because it comes with all one will need from the start. If storing high-dollar valuables, 7 gauge and 4 gauge is not enough…you need measurements in inches.






    I don’t want to come off as a jerk, but to be blunt, the reason the Liberty cost less than a single AR is because of what the safe is, or isn’t. The Liberty is made out of 11-gauge steel and has a fire rating that is below that of many house fires in terms of both duration and temperature. In other terms, the armor that stands between a criminal and the safe’s contents is around .11 inches, or about the thickness of two pennies. A safe in this class can be opened in a few minutes, and by people of marginal skill…there are quite a few pictures online of Liberty safes that had the side walls essentially knocked out by something such as a pointed axe or hammer, and plenty of tutorials available on YouTube that show how to penetrate safes in this class.

    Liberty’s flagship models in the 5-7 grand ranges still only have 1200 degree fire protection and the armor is ridiculously thin relative to other safes in the price range…at this point, the Liberty safes costs MORE than the AMVULT. Literally, National Security Magnum is around $5,000 to $6,000 (http://www.deansafe.com/nase40guhoan.html)…and the AMVAULT of similar size in a TL-30 is only $3,500 (http://www.westcoastsafes.com/cf552...s-p-69.html?osCsid=rrl6akposhqrm9ibhgibas0ao2). (notice the AMVAULT weighs over 2x that of the Liberty). So well over a grand less for over 10 TIMES the armor and a much better fire rating. The Liberty has all the fancy bells and whistles and it is really damned pretty...but the AMVAULT has the armor that will keep valuables in, and people/fire out.

    For people with a lot of valuables inside of it as in tons of high-end stuff, a high-security, tool-resistant safe is hands-down the best way to go.

    Actual UL testing of TL-15 and TL-30 safes shows just how intense these attacks are, and they show just how massive of a difference there is between a ‘gun safe’ and a high-security safe. Most gun safes would not even last a minute as one can literally saw them in half with a cordless saw and a standard blade.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860

    Question for you:
    Do the TL-15/30 safes also provide fire protection? I was looking for the 'next safe' (because. . . well just because I want a monster safe! :) ) and am thinking about a safe like this

    http://www.lackasafe.com/products/u...inal-platinum-vault-tl30x6-high-security-safe

    or this

    http://www.lackasafe.com/products/used-safes-specials/used-jewelersx6-6333-tl30x6-high-security-safe

    And ideally a TRTL like this monster

    http://www.lackasafe.com/products/u...ism-treasury-5722-trtl30x6-high-security-safe

    They seem like A LOT of safe for the money but I just dont know how well they do so far as fire protection goes.

    Thanks.
     

    NickZac

    Active Member
    Aug 12, 2007
    3,412
    Baltimore, MD
    Yes and no…ratings for fire and ratings for burglary resistance are two different things. Virtually no gun safes are tested for burglary resistance and the main reason is because they would be defeated in seconds and so they would not pass any of the UL penetration tests. Further, many makers of gun safes could not get UL penetration testing because the bilding specs of their safe fail to meet the qualifications for a "high-security safe". For gun safes with UL ratings, most are fire-related certifications and these certifications mean absolutely nothing as far as capability to withstand a break-in attack...some makers often lead one to believe their UL fire certifications means it is a tougher safe but, in reality, the UL did absolutely nothing to assess the burglary-resistance of the safe. UL certifications are expressed with small black and silver metal tags which state the certification and safe information.

    TL-15 and TL-30 speaks directly to a certification given by the UL after the safe passed a penetration test. The TL=tool resistant (you will also see TR and TX with some models), 15=15 minutes (may be 15, 30, 45, 60), and (with ultra-high-security safes), an “x6” indicates the certification was given to all 6 sides (in other terms, they tested each side). Certain build qualifications must be met, and the UL testers have blueprints of the safe, plus the most extreme of tools and the best of safe penetration skills. 15 or 30 minutes may not sound like a lot, but these attacks are simply vicious…they push a safe as hard as it can be pushed, and they know just where to go, what to use, and how to use it. The odds a criminal will bring anything near the extreme of a UL attack are pretty low. So even if a skilled criminal is attacking a TL-15 safe, the odds of them gaining entry in 15 minutes is very, very low. A TL-15 safe is a hell of a tough safe, and TL-15 and TL-30 safes are IMHO the best balance of security v. price for most things your average collector puts in a safe. Safes with such certifications will carry a black-and-silver UL tag stating this certification.

    You can have a TL-rated safe that is not fireproof…generally these are plate safes with ½ or 1 inch of solid steel all-around, with a 1 or 1 ½ inch solid steel door, IIRC. They are often the best values for high-security, and when buying used these can be hard for bargains. Some people add their own fire protection, and some just buy a small lockbox for items they want to be shielded from fire. Plate safes are also nice as the taller models that can store long guns are very common and it's not hard to find a tall TL-15 or TL-30 capable of holding those long guns.

    Some people criticize UL burglary ratings and some of the criticism is very sensible...however, these ratings are the best things currently on the market to assess how much a safe can take. If you buy a TL-15 you know it meets certain performance abilities...the only other option are the YouTube vids of makers who self-test their safes, and most of these videos do not mirror the type of attack that a professional (or even a semi-skilled thief) would use if they were trying to penetrate the safe (the most ridiculous video I have seen was a Liberty Safe video in which they got a bunch of 'strong guys' off the street, gave them crude tools, and told them to break in the safe only to videotape them failing to defeat the safe and complimenting on how strong of a safe the Liberty model is as if it were a damned ISM Super Diamond TXTRTL-30x6...with MS, I can defeat that type of 'gun safe' shown in the video in under a minute...or a few, at worst).

    The most common fire-rated and burglary-rated safes comprise the modern high-density composite safes. These give incredible protection to a penetration attack…the steel is hard, the welds are deep, and the high-density composites destroys tooling. These composites also provide exceptional fire protection. Most of the safes in this class will have a UL 350 rating in which the safe was heated to 1850 degrees and sustained, and the internal temperature did not rise above 350 F. Two-hour ratings are pretty common, such as that found on the AMVAULT. For someone wanting serious fire protection, this is it. A cheap safe with a 1200F/30min fire protection that doesn't even state what the internal temp rose to may or may not give the fire protection needed for a major house fire. High-density composite safes will. These safes have been tested and certified and they will keep your valuables safe in even the worst of home fires. Safes with such certifications will carry a black-and-silver UL tag stating this certification.

    So if you have a high-security and a fire-resistant safe, you should have two metal badges stating such certifications.

    I believe all of the models you linked for are UL350 for 2 hours at 1850 degrees. The ISM Treasury is one of the finest tool-and-torch safes ever made and it is one serious beast. I feel bad for the poor fool that tries to break into one of them. All of the models listed are a lot of safe for the money.

    A lot of times you’ll find the local safe dealers that get ahold of torch-n-tool safes used and they sell them for a hella-good bargain. A guy I know in PA got a few Melink Gibraltars in that were the big sized TL30x6 models and he was selling them for not much more than the price of a new mid-level Liberty model made from thin 10 gauge steel. The Gibraltars are fantastic safes and for home usage, it's a great buy. If you are looking for a TRTL safe, Dave at SafeWorks has a few TRTLx30 (might be x6) Moslers for like 300 bucks and it's a fabulous safe in fabulous condition…if bought new, a safe with that configuration would be thousands.
     

    niftyvt

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    1,891
    Virginia
    Yes and no…ratings for fire and ratings for burglary resistance are two different things. Virtually no gun safes are tested for burglary resistance and the main reason is because they would be defeated in seconds and so they would not pass any of the UL penetration tests. Further, many makers of gun safes could not get UL penetration testing because the bilding specs of their safe fail to meet the qualifications for a "high-security safe". For gun safes with UL ratings, most are fire-related certifications and these certifications mean absolutely nothing as far as capability to withstand a break-in attack...some makers often lead one to believe their UL fire certifications means it is a tougher safe but, in reality, the UL did absolutely nothing to assess the burglary-resistance of the safe. UL certifications are expressed with small black and silver metal tags which state the certification and safe information.

    TL-15 and TL-30 speaks directly to a certification given by the UL after the safe passed a penetration test. The TL=tool resistant (you will also see TR and TX with some models), 15=15 minutes (may be 15, 30, 45, 60), and (with ultra-high-security safes), an “x6” indicates the certification was given to all 6 sides (in other terms, they tested each side). Certain build qualifications must be met, and the UL testers have blueprints of the safe, plus the most extreme of tools and the best of safe penetration skills. 15 or 30 minutes may not sound like a lot, but these attacks are simply vicious…they push a safe as hard as it can be pushed, and they know just where to go, what to use, and how to use it. The odds a criminal will bring anything near the extreme of a UL attack are pretty low. So even if a skilled criminal is attacking a TL-15 safe, the odds of them gaining entry in 15 minutes is very, very low. A TL-15 safe is a hell of a tough safe, and TL-15 and TL-30 safes are IMHO the best balance of security v. price for most things your average collector puts in a safe. Safes with such certifications will carry a black-and-silver UL tag stating this certification.

    You can have a TL-rated safe that is not fireproof…generally these are plate safes with ½ or 1 inch of solid steel all-around, with a 1 or 1 ½ inch solid steel door, IIRC. They are often the best values for high-security, and when buying used these can be hard for bargains. Some people add their own fire protection, and some just buy a small lockbox for items they want to be shielded from fire. Plate safes are also nice as the taller models that can store long guns are very common and it's not hard to find a tall TL-15 or TL-30 capable of holding those long guns.

    Some people criticize UL burglary ratings and some of the criticism is very sensible...however, these ratings are the best things currently on the market to assess how much a safe can take. If you buy a TL-15 you know it meets certain performance abilities...the only other option are the YouTube vids of makers who self-test their safes, and most of these videos do not mirror the type of attack that a professional (or even a semi-skilled thief) would use if they were trying to penetrate the safe (the most ridiculous video I have seen was a Liberty Safe video in which they got a bunch of 'strong guys' off the street, gave them crude tools, and told them to break in the safe only to videotape them failing to defeat the safe and complimenting on how strong of a safe the Liberty model is as if it were a damned ISM Super Diamond TXTRTL-30x6...with MS, I can defeat that type of 'gun safe' shown in the video in under a minute...or a few, at worst).

    The most common fire-rated and burglary-rated safes comprise the modern high-density composite safes. These give incredible protection to a penetration attack…the steel is hard, the welds are deep, and the high-density composites destroys tooling. These composites also provide exceptional fire protection. Most of the safes in this class will have a UL 350 rating in which the safe was heated to 1850 degrees and sustained, and the internal temperature did not rise above 350 F. Two-hour ratings are pretty common, such as that found on the AMVAULT. For someone wanting serious fire protection, this is it. A cheap safe with a 1200F/30min fire protection that doesn't even state what the internal temp rose to may or may not give the fire protection needed for a major house fire. High-density composite safes will. These safes have been tested and certified and they will keep your valuables safe in even the worst of home fires. Safes with such certifications will carry a black-and-silver UL tag stating this certification.

    So if you have a high-security and a fire-resistant safe, you should have two metal badges stating such certifications.

    I believe all of the models you linked for are UL350 for 2 hours at 1850 degrees. The ISM Treasury is one of the finest tool-and-torch safes ever made and it is one serious beast. I feel bad for the poor fool that tries to break into one of them. All of the models listed are a lot of safe for the money.

    A lot of times you’ll find the local safe dealers that get ahold of torch-n-tool safes used and they sell them for a hella-good bargain. A guy I know in PA got a few Melink Gibraltars in that were the big sized TL30x6 models and he was selling them for not much more than the price of a new mid-level Liberty model made from thin 10 gauge steel. The Gibraltars are fantastic safes and for home usage, it's a great buy. If you are looking for a TRTL safe, Dave at SafeWorks has a few TRTLx30 (might be x6) Moslers for like 300 bucks and it's a fabulous safe in fabulous condition…if bought new, a safe with that configuration would be thousands.


    Thanks! Once I get these AKs payed off the pennies are getting saved for a used monster. I just have to make sure it will fit through my basement door :lol2: After that I will just stick it in the corner. .. I will for sure have to rip up some flooring (wood) before placing it!

    Before I buy I will give them a call to double check on the fire rating. I would be surprised if they werent fire rated.

    That lackasafe site says they have white glove installation, I will most definitely take advantage of that, even if it costs a lot. 700 lbs was easy. . . 4k pounds. . . yeah. . . thats more than my jeep! :D

    If the ISM Treasury dimensions listed include the handle and hinges then it will fit through my basement door with a 1/4-1/2 inch to spare! :party29:

    Yeah, I will check with Dave from SafeWorks too!
     

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