Enhancing and Clarifying LEOSA

[R1Peacock]

For whatever reason there are haters of retired LE because we are granted what some consider a free pass for concealed carry with LEOSA. I’m not trying to stir the pot - just passing some information.

Opinion: It’s Time for Congress to Clarify LEOSA

The Law Enforcement Officer Safety Reform Act (H.R. 354 ) would clarify the qualification requirements so that LEOSA-qualified officers aren’t forced, as they are in some states, to complete SWAT-level qualifications to carry in retirement.

www.policemag.com

H.R.354 - LEOSA Reform Act118th Congress (2023-2024)​

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/354/text?s=1&r=17

 

[RFBfromDE]

Posted by Flash
Mar 29th, 2023 6:22pm
Can the author elaborate on which states require “swat level” quals for retired LEOs? I am thinking of moving and will avoid those states.

I too find it odd that the "swat level" training requirement was claimed in the headline but not elaborated upon in the body of the article.

The FOP needs to name names and get tuff with them. As well as throw in some resistance to the Commie BS they must endure from their elected bosses while still active.

 

[rseymorejr]

Swat Level training is what we'll be subjected to for renewing our W&C's pretty soon

 

[4g64loser]

Swat Level training is what we'll be subjected to for renewing our W&C's pretty soon

As long as I get all the toys and ammo on government dollar, I'm game to try. Oh, and if I pass, I want cop lights on my car and the ability to raid the wrong house without repercussions. I won't shoot any dogs, though, because dogs are usually cool. No promises on tracking dogshit through the house.

The name of the mga game is infringement. They will keep it up. The fearful possibility of more "normies" deciding on carry as their trusted method of protection from evil is certainly in the forefront of many statist minds.

 

[daNattyFatty]

Posted by Flash
Mar 29th, 2023 6:22pm
Can the author elaborate on which states require “swat level” quals for retired LEOs? I am thinking of moving and will avoid those states.

I too find it odd that the "swat level" training requirement was claimed in the headline but not elaborated upon in the body of the article.

The FOP needs to name names and get tuff with them. As well as throw in some resistance to the Commie BS they must endure from their elected bosses while still active.

New Jersey is the only state named in the article.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[R1Peacock]

What qualification course of fire is required for a Wear and Carry Permit Holder in the State of Maryland? I’m being honest because I do not know — Please tell me those that get a Concealed Carry Permit are required to do more than what MSP posts for the Armed Security Guard Course and the Basic Practical Handgun Course of fire. This is pretty scary if what is in the document is all that is required for the average gun owner.

At least for my department, our LEOSA (Daylight and Lowlight) course of fire qualifications held each year far exceed what is in the MSP document - its not “SWAT Level” but it is far more. We all also have 20 years or more of continual training — it starts with a 27 week academy where every recruit shot 3,000 rounds daylight, lowlight, w/flashlight, moving to cover, etc. before we even tried to officially qualify. We then had to pass 30 (shoot and don’t shoot) scenarios using Simunitions, participate in hours of video training scenarios, 1 week of active shooter training, weapons retention, Krav Maga, etc. All along instructors were screaming at you to create a stressful environment and would wash people out for excessive force or other character flaws. Each year we then received specialized training for serving high risk warrants, house and room entry, vehicle extractions, etc.

I can’t speak for all retirees but most of us are highly trained after 20 years in more than just shooting a gun - that’s why LEOSA holds a bit more weight than a 16 hour W&C course. Those that trained in the military I can see your argument. Not trying to stir the pot — just saying…..

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organization/Documents/Live%20Fire%20Courses%20(2).doc.pdf

 

[Mark75H]

What qualification course of fire is required for a Wear and Carry Permit Holder in the State of Maryland? I’m being honest because I do not know — Please tell me those that get a Concealed Carry Permit are required to do more than what MSP posts for the Armed Security Guard Course and the Basic Practical Handgun Course of fire. This is pretty scary if what is in the document is all that is required.

At least for my department, our LEOSA (Daylight and Lowlight) course of fire qualifications far exceed what is in the MSP document - its not “SWAT Level” but it is far more. During our 27 week academy (20+ years ago every recruit also shot 3,000 rounds daylight, lowlight, w/flashlight, moving to cover, etc. before we even tried to officially qualify. We then had to pass 30 (shoot and don’t shoot) scenarios using Simunitions, participate in hours of video training scenarios, 1 week of active shooter training, weapons retention, Krav Maga, etc. All along instructors would wash people out for excessive force or other character flaws.

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organization/Documents/Live%20Fire%20Courses%20(2).doc.pdf

Right there on the document you link: "Basic Shooting for all others"

 

[lazarus]

What qualification course of fire is required for a Wear and Carry Permit Holder in the State of Maryland? I’m being honest because I do not know — Please tell me those that get a Concealed Carry Permit are required to do more than what MSP posts for the Armed Security Guard Course and the Basic Practical Handgun Course of fire. This is pretty scary if what is in the document is all that is required for the average gun owner.

At least for my department, our LEOSA (Daylight and Lowlight) course of fire qualifications held each year far exceed what is in the MSP document - its not “SWAT Level” but it is far more. We all also have 20 years or more of continual training — it starts with a 27 week academy where every recruit shot 3,000 rounds daylight, lowlight, w/flashlight, moving to cover, etc. before we even tried to officially qualify. We then had to pass 30 (shoot and don’t shoot) scenarios using Simunitions, participate in hours of video training scenarios, 1 week of active shooter training, weapons retention, Krav Maga, etc. All along instructors were screaming at you to create a stressful environment and would wash people out for excessive force or other character flaws. Each year we then received specialized training for serving high risk warrants, house and room entry, vehicle extractions, etc.

I can’t speak for all retirees but most of us are highly trained after 20 years in more than just shooting a gun - that’s why LEOSA holds a bit more weight than a 16 hour W&C course. Those that trained in the military I can see your argument. Not trying to stir the pot — just saying…..

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organization/Documents/Live%20Fire%20Courses%20(2).doc.pdf

A quibble with what you mention. That was your experience. Police academies do not have a standardized curriculum across the country. Yes, even the most weak sauce academy is a lot more stringent than the 16hr wear and carry course. Many police agencies around the country though have very basic annual qualification standards. Some have pretty exacting standards. Many require ongoing firearms training. Some don't. Officer Rural No Where whose 6 person department really just cares about issuing tickets and breaking out the MRAP they got from DHS for the July 4th town of 1000 people parade probably doesn't have remotely the same level of training or experience as someone from, say, NYPD.

I guess if you really want to look at it, the failure is in permit to carry. There is no way for the person who DOES have hundreds of hours of classes to prove they are a lot better qualified than the guy who has no qualification requirements at all in a constitutional carry state, or one where you need a one hour class and shoot a 22 one time. Or even MD that is more stringent than pretty much any other state, but still doesn't remotely approach "real training".

Because I'd imagine there are a number of members on here who are not former LE or military, who do have significantly more training than most of the former law enforcement officers here. It's probably very few, but I'd bet anything there are a few. Some people do take use of force classes, plenty of shooting classes in all types of circumstances, with all types of weapons, etc. Spend hundreds of hours a year shooting and training.

 

[Blacksmith101]

I suspect there are a number of members here that far exceed the average number of rounds most LEO's fire each year after "basic training: is complete. A friend of mine was a Firearms Instructor in his organization and we would talk about the struggles he had getting some members of his department through their annual qualification.

 

[clandestine]

Let me get this straight...

The O.P. objects to a stricter SWAT Shooting requirement for LEOSA, but thinks Non-LEO should have a strict qualification?

The 2A should have no test. GTFO of here with that ********.

 

[HaveBlue]

A quibble with what you mention. That was your experience. Police academies do not have a standardized curriculum across the country. Yes, even the most weak sauce academy is a lot more stringent than the 16hr wear and carry course. Many police agencies around the country though have very basic annual qualification standards. Some have pretty exacting standards. Many require ongoing firearms training. Some don't. Officer Rural No Where whose 6 person department really just cares about issuing tickets and breaking out the MRAP they got from DHS for the July 4th town of 1000 people parade probably doesn't have remotely the same level of training or experience as someone from, say, NYPD.

I guess if you really want to look at it, the failure is in permit to carry. There is no way for the person who DOES have hundreds of hours of classes to prove they are a lot better qualified than the guy who has no qualification requirements at all in a constitutional carry state, or one where you need a one hour class and shoot a 22 one time. Or even MD that is more stringent than pretty much any other state, but still doesn't remotely approach "real training".

Because I'd imagine there are a number of members on here who are not former LE or military, who do have significantly more training than most of the former law enforcement officers here. It's probably very few, but I'd bet anything there are a few. Some people do take use of force classes, plenty of shooting classes in all types of circumstances, with all types of weapons, etc. Spend hundreds of hours a year shooting and training.

Your comments about LEO training make perfect sense. The urban officers should be the very best. Not just because they need to be but because they get lots of on the job experience.

However, I think you would change your mind after having a candid conversation with some urban and suburban LEOs.

From my (anecdotal) conversations with them. Many urban officers are less likely to be comfortable with firearms in general and rarely shoot outside their qualification sessions. I haven't heard many big compliments for the marksman ship of NYPD officers either. One urban HQ I visited had patrol rifles, shotguns and pepper ball guns for the officers to choose from. The pepper ball guns were selected by the officers who weren't comfortable with the other options.

 

[lazarus]

Your comments about LEO training make perfect sense. The urban officers should be the very best. Not just because they need to be but because they get lots of on the job experience.

However, I think you would change your mind after having a candid conversation with some urban and suburban LEOs.

From my (anecdotal) conversations with them. Many urban officers are less likely to be comfortable with firearms in general and rarely shoot outside their qualification sessions. I haven't heard many big compliments for the marksman ship of NYPD officers either. One urban HQ I visited had patrol rifles, shotguns and pepper ball guns for the officers to choose from. The pepper ball guns were selected by the officers who weren't comfortable with the other options.

I am in general agreement. But if we are just talking training and then contributed qualification requirements my moderate amount of outside knowledge and experience is urban and suburban departments and state police agencies tend to be much more rigorous on academies, continued training, and qualifications to remain certified compared to rural departments and sheriffs offices. I’d agree your average rural officer probably has a lot more interest in guns and comfort level.

But I probably do too versus your average police officer. But a ton more practical experience and comfort isn’t something I can be licensed on to prove. Police can’t either, but at least they have a certain minimum level that’s a lot higher than even the maximum of any concealed carry license.

But no, I don’t think officer kitten working in some department that requires they put 50 rounds down range a year to stay certified and hasn’t had a use of force training class since the academy and never shoots or handles guns outside of work, is now retired a few decades later and does get a LEOSA is better qualified or safer to carry than I am. But there is no mechanism for me to prove that. His LEOSA says at least once upon a time he had some real training and at least annually can prove he has some very basic marksmanship skills.

It’s not like MSP will let me run the security guard shooting qualification and get security guard exemptions for carry. Heck, I would if I could.