Educate Me on Hand Forged Knives

[ThisGuy918]

Dang it NickZak. Stop mentioning Busse knives. I don't feel like dropping four bills this week.

 

[NickZac]

Dang it NickZak. Stop mentioning Busse knives. I don't feel like dropping four bills this week.

Ever see Noss' destruction test on a Battle Mistress? While not very scientific, it's mind-numbing to watch how much the knife could take while still holding a working edge. It took him something like 3 hours of just intense abuse to break it using the same methods he could break a decent fixed blade in a matter of a few minutes. He had to literally increase the intensity of his destruction tests because he was unable to break it and the knife actually broke most of the tools he was trying to destroy it with!!! At the point where he finally broke it, he was so out of breath it sounded like he was about to croak on the spot.

 

[llkoolkeg]

This one appears to be a pretty beefy-good deal-

Maker: Cold Steel
Name: Warcraft Tanto
Blade Length: 7 1/2"
Blade Thickness: 5 mm
Overall Length: 12 3/4"
Steel: U.S. CPM 3-V High Carbon
Weight: 13 oz
Handle: 4 3/4" G-10
Sheath: Secure-Ex® Sheath

 

[Sam Salvati]

Busse knives are edged like a rock chisel, I can get a rock chisel from any hardware store to shave hair and chop wood and do all the same things a busse can do, its easy if you understand edge geometry to any extent.

As far as using junkyard steels, yeah it is a sign of an amateur. Not to say they wont make a quality knife. RR spikes are on the bottom, they are all the same steel, the HC mark does not designate high carbon, there is no different types of spikes. There are different types of anchors, the new pandrol clips which are round and coiled like a poop, are great steel. As far as RR spikes, no matter what you know about metallurgy, you cant make chicken salad from chicken $hit, you could make an edible meal but you still made it with chicken $hit.

As to Old vs new high carbon steels, LOLOLOL. Steel technology is ever advancing, and even with an eye to the past alot of older blades have been analyzed and the steel they were made from has been recreated today. 1095, W2, 1084, classic cutlery steels used for years now available again.

PLUS, its not all about steel, steel decides how long a knife cuts and Edge Geometry decides how well it cuts. Its that simple.

 

[ThisGuy918]

So if Busse aren't that great, what do you recommend Sam?

 

[Sam Salvati]

Find a reputable custom maker, do your research as to what maker to choose. Don't have a guy known for making jeweled folders make you a camp knife. Also, think about what you want the knife for, if you want to chop through bricks and pry open stuff, then you don't want a knife you want a crowbar. Knives are meant to cut.

 

[NickZac]

Busse knives are edged like a rock chisel, I can get a rock chisel from any hardware store to shave hair and chop wood and do all the same things a busse can do, its easy if you understand edge geometry to any extent.

As far as using junkyard steels, yeah it is a sign of an amateur. Not to say they wont make a quality knife. RR spikes are on the bottom, they are all the same steel, the HC mark does not designate high carbon, there is no different types of spikes. There are different types of anchors, the new pandrol clips which are round and coiled like a poop, are great steel. As far as RR spikes, no matter what you know about metallurgy, you cant make chicken salad from chicken $hit, you could make an edible meal but you still made it with chicken $hit.

As to Old vs new high carbon steels, LOLOLOL. Steel technology is ever advancing, and even with an eye to the past alot of older blades have been analyzed and the steel they were made from has been recreated today. 1095, W2, 1084, classic cutlery steels used for years now available again.

PLUS, its not all about steel, steel decides how long a knife cuts and Edge Geometry decides how well it cuts. Its that simple.

Which Busses are you speaking to? I can't say I agree with your take on the edge geometry completely...I would indeed agree it has a very thick edge and that Busse's are generally poor slicers. But that largely comes down to the intended application.

Steel technology has made leaps with the processes used to make stainless steels capable of performing like carbon steels but with corrosion resistance. 1095 is great steel...no doubt it is one of the best provided the heat treatment is done right. Hell, 52100 is one of my favorite steels along side 1095, but give the newer steels a little more credit...Bohler M390/ELMAX? Crucible S35VN/CPM-3V? Carpenter XHP? Many custom makers' takes on these steels speak to vast improvements over previously used steels...major increases in toughness, 60+ HRC without brittleness, incredibly even carbide distributions, fantastic corrosion resistance...not to mention the real-world ability for the average person to maintain the edge. I have a Keffeler and a ZT in CPM-3V...anyone using them for heavier utility can quickly see why so many people get giddy over 3V...

And edge geometry doesn't mean much if the hardening process is done poorly. You could have the finest blade design using the finest steel and if the hardening sucks, the performance is going to suck. Further, what type of grind/angle we are talking about is completely application dependent with tons of user-preference involved. For example, I really like the deep hollow grind on the Sebenza 21 for the (primarily slicing) tasks I do with that sort of a knife...but there are tons of people who feel the polar opposite and swear by a blade design which is as different as they come...

 

[Sam Salvati]

Who forges that high tech stuff though?

 

[54rndball]

This one appears to be a pretty beefy-good deal-

Maker: Cold Steel
Name: Warcraft Tanto
Blade Length: 7 1/2"
Blade Thickness: 5 mm
Overall Length: 12 3/4"
Steel: U.S. CPM 3-V High Carbon
Weight: 13 oz
Handle: 4 3/4" G-10
Sheath: Secure-Ex® Sheath

Cold Steel is junk. Cheap steel with overhyped marketing, i.e. videos showing bs cutting demonstrations. If you don't have much money, it is for you. But save up and get a Benchmade knife. They are well made commercial knives and not too expensive.

 

[NickZac]

Cold Steel is junk. Cheap steel with overhyped marketing, i.e. videos showing bs cutting demonstrations. If you don't have much money, it is for you. But save up and get a Benchmade knife. They are well made commercial knives and not too expensive.

I agree with you except on one point...

I hate their marketing, I hate many of their knives, I hate most of their grinds, I hate how they rip other companies off (hence the nickname, "Cold Steal"), I think the 'Americanized-Tanto' is the most useless blade grind in history, and I think their tests are as stupid as many of the 'safe tests' on Youtube, but the Warcraft will outperform anything Benchmade offers in a sense of blade steel-only. CPM-3V is as good as it gets. Shame the grind is so useless and IMO that particular knife has the worst blade shape a knife can have...

If the OP wants CPM-3V, the ZT0100 is hard to beat. It will run circles all over the Cold Steal. ZT's hardening is likely 100 times better than CS, and the ZT is cheaper.

Benchmade makes great knives. But, Benchmade doesn't really have good larger fixed blade offerings relative to their folders which offer a wide range of price-performance-options. They have a few really nice ones, but they are very expensive. For heavier usage knives, it's hard to compete with things like the Ontario RAT, some Becker, and some Randall lines, all offering capable hard-work fixed blades for under $100.

 

[Sam Salvati]

dont see where the OP even mentioned CPM anything, think he was asking about hand forged knives?

 

[dreadpirate]

dont see where the OP even mentioned CPM anything, think he was asking about hand forged knives?

That's ok - I am reading every word.

 

[NickZac]

dont see where the OP even mentioned CPM anything, think he was asking about hand forged knives?

With the question of, "is it worth it?", IMO I think discussing the options of current gen powder steels and carbon steels are relevant to the discussion given the pros/cons of each. The price of the hand forged knives are high...and there are some low-cost 1095 and 52100 blades that are very capable (mind you, without the character of a custom forged blade). All factors to the equation as to what is worth it from an individual standpoint, IMO.

The Cold Steel knife mentioned is expensive in the territory of nice custom knives from makers using 1095, 154, D2, S30, etc. In my personal opinion, going with a different option than the Cold Steel is worth consideration given $400 will purchase a nice custom or a few nice factory knives. Also, I feel the Americanized Tanto on the Cold Steel really prevents it from being nearly as useful as a bowie/clip point/drop point/utility point/spear point etc...when I first got into knives, I found that out the hard way because I liked how they looked but not how they don't last and how they really aren't good for any utility work. But that's all my personal take.

 

[llkoolkeg]

The Cold Steel knife mentioned is expensive in the territory of nice custom knives from makers using 1095, 154, D2, S30, etc. In my personal opinion, going with a different option than the Cold Steel is worth consideration given $400 will purchase a nice custom or a few nice factory knives. Also, I feel the Americanized Tanto on the Cold Steel really prevents it from being nearly as useful as a bowie/clip point/drop point/utility point/spear point etc...when I first got into knives, I found that out the hard way because I liked how they looked but not how they don't last and how they really aren't good for any utility work. But that's all my personal take.

The vast majority of my blades are custom forged by 1st rate American bladesmiths(Anthony DiCristofano, Rick Barrett, Jesus Hernandez, Randal Graham, etc.) and NONE were as inexpensive as $400...in fact several are in excess of $4000 and one almost twice that amount. I own several Benchmade autos and balisong but have never owned a Cold Steel blade besides their Imperial tanto, a 12" bladed beast I eventually sold.

I posted the Warcraft Tanto based not on personal experience but curiosity resulting from the steel used. Regarding the americanized tanto blade shape, I personally love it even though I mostly possess very traditional Japanese-style shinogi-zukuri, shobu-zukuri, hira-zukuri and u-no-kubi-zukuri blades. The americanized tanto is very easy to sharpen, the tip is extremely well supported, the spine is stout and the spot where the angle changes abruptly is WICKEDLY sharp. The angled tip is VERY useful for the general utility work I do on various materials though I certainly wouldn't choose to dress a deer or fillet a fish with it as it's certainly the wrong tool for that particular job.

But for less than $170 shipped? I'm not saying that nothing better exists in that realm but wouldn't mind hearing about proposed options.

E.G.-
COLD STEEL WARCRAFT TANTO FIXED BLADE KNIFE W/ SECURE-EX SHEATH 13TL *NEW*
thegoodguys | 15132 | 100.0%
12/30, 10:21AM
$168.95
Buy It Now

 

[NickZac]

The vast majority of my blades are custom forged by 1st rate American bladesmiths(Anthony DiCristofano, Rick Barrett, Jesus Hernandez, Randal Graham, etc.) and NONE were as inexpensive as $400...in fact several are in excess of $4000 and one almost twice that amount. I own several Benchmade autos and balisong but have never owned a Cold Steel blade besides their Imperial tanto, a 12" bladed beast I eventually sold.

I posted the Warcraft Tanto based not on personal experience but curiosity resulting from the steel used. Regarding the americanized tanto blade shape, I personally love it even though I mostly possess very traditional Japanese-style shinogi-zukuri, shobu-zukuri, hira-zukuri and u-no-kubi-zukuri blades. The americanized tanto is very easy to sharpen, the tip is extremely well supported, the spine is stout and the spot where the angle changes abruptly is WICKEDLY sharp. The angled tip is VERY useful for the general utility work I do on various materials though I certainly wouldn't choose to dress a deer or fillet a fish with it as it's certainly the wrong tool for that particular job.

But for less than $170 shipped? I'm not saying that nothing better exists in that realm but wouldn't mind hearing about proposed options.

E.G.-
COLD STEEL WARCRAFT TANTO FIXED BLADE KNIFE W/ SECURE-EX SHEATH 13TL *NEW*
thegoodguys | 15132 | 100.0%
12/30, 10:21AM
$168.95
Buy It Now

You have some really nice knives! While I haven't had a ton of experience with their products, those names are constantly mentioned when the discussion of most skilled knifemakers arise and they make some beautiful blades.

Personally at the price range for the CS 3V, I prefer the ZT0100. With that said, I've not had much experience with CS' 3V...and I do have a general negative feeling toward the company which is personal bias.

I do not remember exactly what my 0100 was but it was a factory blem and something like $150-ish from an AD (like most KAI blems, it followed the tendency for blems to be almost new and had only a light .25 inch scratch on the blade). New they are usually around $240-265 from ADs, but since it isn't a popular item, they can often be had on sale for around $200 given how slow ZT fixed blades move versus folders. It's an awesome fixed blade with a kickass grind and steel, the hardening is fantastic and it can take crazy abuse, and it even has a pretty good MOLLE sheath for something OEM and at that price, but it just isn't super popular and ZT has really become equated with folders...I sometimes think that's partly why Benchmade's fixed blades have never been super successful despite them making some great models over the past 20 years?

While a little bit above $170, Bark River has some nice 3V creations at a similar price...the Bravo starts around $220 http://www.knivesshipfree.com/bravo-1-3v/?sort=alphaasc

 

[phil42]

Thai?

Well - I got this knife from Johnny Z. The blade is "re-purposed steel" from a quarry saw blade. The handle is elk horn. It also has a bottle opener on it. If anyone knows what the strange lettering is (last pic below), let me know. Some manufacturer's markings from the original saw blade.

I traveled SE Asia a bit and those look to be Thai characters. Maybe Indonesia, Vietnam, Definetly a foreign character set.

I just picked up a similar knife from Johnny Z as well. Hoping its made well as it seems as if it might not be 100% full tang. Also suspect the Elk handle could be imitation.

 

[dreadpirate]

I just picked up a similar knife from Johnny Z as well. Hoping its made well as it seems as if it might not be 100% full tang. Also suspect the Elk handle could be imitation.

Interesting - as he (Johnny) definitely said it was Elk. That would be disappointing if it is imitation. How can you tell for sure?

 

[dreadpirate]

I traveled SE Asia a bit and those look to be Thai characters. Maybe Indonesia, Vietnam, Definetly a foreign character set.

I also wonder if some of the lettering is rubbed off making it illegible.

 

[Sam Salvati]

LOL, looking at that knife, I dont think he made it at all, just imported it, maybe built from a kit.