Disapproved on 77R... one sleepless night

[Doctor_M]

So... I'm offering this story as a PSA to anyone who gets an unexpected "Disapproved" evaluation on a handgun application... stay calm, it just might not be you.

I found a nice single-action .45 Colt in PA and had it transferred to my favorite MD FFL (It was a little too new to be picked up directly on my FFL03). Everything went fine... did my 77R on my phone in the shop and prepared for my waiting period and figured that I could pick it up in time to shoot it for Father's day.

Last night at 7:30, I get an email from MSP... your application has been disapproved. If you want to appeal, submit a request in writing within 30 days. No explanation... no details... just "no soup for you". I'm in shock. I've bought over 100 regulated firearms (some recently), have an FFL03, an HQL, a WCP, am a designated collector, have a security clearance, am a police reserve officer, etc., etc. Other than a couple of traffic tickets, there is nothing in my background that could flag me. I don't even have a late library book.

I start thinking and worrying about this all night. In my attempt to fill out the form on my phone, could I have inadvertently have checked the wrong box? I go to the web portal dashboard and there is the disapproval (disapproval-other)... what does that mean? Search for it on the web... nothing. Make a late night call to a friend of mine who is an FFL-01... he doesn't know but checks his book... nothing. I double check my paperwork... nope it all looks right.

There is nothing I can do until the MSP opens in the morning, so I sit in bed with my brain working overtime and my BGOS kicking into full steam (I'm embarrassed to tell you some of the wild a$$ things I was fretting last night). I don't even want to think about the volume of stomach acid I generated last night. There weren't enough TUMS in the world to help.

8:00 am finally rolls around and I make a call to MSP expecting to get an administrative run-around (the lady on the other end was actually pretty helpful). I gave her my application number and 3 mins later she came back and said, it has nothing to do with you, the used gun that you were attempting to transfer came back as stolen.

So after a couple of short calls to my FFL and the one in PA (who was astonished and thinks it has to be a mistake), I think the sale will be voided and I should get my money back... and I'll have to buy myself another Father's day gift. It was a nice gun at a great price, but all things said and done, I hope that it gets back to its rightful owner. The PA FFL said that the gun came from the estate of a 93 year old collector and he bought 42 guns in that lot... he is going to check back with the estate, but said that he doubted very much that the last owner was involved in gun theft. I guess it is possible that he unknowingly bought a stolen gun himself. He also added that in 17 years as an FFL, this is the first time he's had to deal with something like this.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this in case anyone out there gets surprised by a disapproval. It may not be you, so take some TUMS and try and get some sleep.

P.S. No dogs were killed in the events described here.

 

[camo556]

The paperwork for the stolen gun could have been messed up. Maybe the 93 yr old reported the gun stolen and never corrected the record

 

[4g64loser]

Been involved with this in the ffl side. Forward trace process on a firearm. Some turd in illinois was the originator (long story how we found that out). The firearm in question was actually on the premises as the owner took it for his personal gun and it came straight from the manufacturer. This Ahole keeps calling after we told the tracing center that it was in the building, perfectly legal, and to pound sand. Numbskull detective finally bugged the boss enough that the boss told him to come in down and get it himself if he was man enough.

In short, you probably have a similar issue. Some thumbsucking moron mistyped the serial number when I put into the database. Add the possibility that the serial alone was input without full make/model/caliber info, etc. Since you are just the buyer, I'd say cut loose of the mess and get your money back. The numbnutz who administer the database are worthless and you will always have a "stolen" gun even if md eventually clears the transaction.

Is it obvious that I don't have much respect for authority?

 

[RoadDawg]

Been involved with this in the ffl side. Forward trace process on a firearm. Some turd in illinois was the originator (long story how we found that out). The firearm in question was actually on the premises as the owner took it for his personal gun and it came straight from the manufacturer. This Ahole keeps calling after we told the tracing center that it was in the building, perfectly legal, and to pound sand. Numbskull detective finally bugged the boss enough that the boss told him to come in down and get it himself if he was man enough.

In short, you probably have a similar issue. Some thumbsucking moron mistyped the serial number when I put into the database. Add the possibility that the serial alone was input without full make/model/caliber info, etc. Since you are just the buyer, I'd say cut loose of the mess and get your money back. The numbnutz who administer the database are worthless and you will always have a "stolen" gun even if md eventually clears the transaction.

Is it obvious that I don't have much respect for authority?

Obviously you’ve never had to take a report of a stolen firearm from one of your totally reputable fellow citizens.

Ever wonder how those serial numbers get reported wrong?

Many times… the LEO is given a serial number from the owner, that number is entered into the report. But the “numbnutz” (as you called it) reporting person, who was 1000% certain of the serial number… (and many times even the brand name) had it wrong.

I learned early on… people get sh!t wrong. Especially when they are upset and reporting things to the police. So I always tried to check records and facts before submitting the report. But alas, records are not always available. So you must go with what you’ve been told.

OP,
Sorry this happened to you. Glad it can be worked out to get your money back. Thanks for the tale, so others may not go through the same sleepless night of angst as you did.

 

[4g64loser]

Obviously you’ve never had to take a report of a stolen firearm from one of your totally reputable fellow citizens.

Ever wonder how those serial numbers get reported wrong?

Many times… the LEO is given a serial number from the owner, that number is entered into the report. But the “numbnutz” (as you called it) reporting person, who was 1000% certain of the serial number… (and many times even the brand name) had it wrong.

I learned early on… people get sh!t wrong. Especially when they are upset and reporting things to the police. So I always tried to check records and facts before submitting the report. But alas, records are not always available. So you must go with what you’ve been told.

OP,
Sorry this happened to you. Glad it can be worked out to get your money back. Thanks for the tale, so others may not go through the same sleepless night of angst as you did.

I'd agree except for the fact that the cop harassing my boss kept insisting that the firearm had been used in a crime, not that it was stolen. How he pulled this out of his crystal ball is anyone's guess but we had the paper trail to prove provenance and yet he still insisted on harassing my boss. The forward trace was complied with. He had no right to inject himself into the process and then continue to pester an ffl. If that's acceptable to you, guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Maybe I am unusual but I can give you the serial numbers of the three firearms I carry regularly (not all at once) from memory on demand. Just like being able to provide plate numbers on demand should my vehicle be stolen.

 

[Bob A]

Bought a Webley from a poster here (who ironically is now with the MSP). Doing the transfer at a barracks, we were told the gun was stolen. Much anguish, until MSP figured out that the serial number was for a different model of Webley. Took about 15 extra minutes to get it squared away.

 

[RoadDawg]

I'd agree except for the fact that the cop harassing my boss kept insisting that the firearm had been used in a crime, not that it was stolen. How he pulled this out of his crystal ball is anyone's guess but we had the paper trail to prove provenance and yet he still insisted on harassing my boss. The forward trace was complied with. He had no right to inject himself into the process and then continue to pester an ffl. If that's acceptable to you, guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Maybe I am unusual but I can give you the serial numbers of the three firearms I carry regularly (not all at once) from memory on demand. Just like being able to provide plate numbers on demand should my vehicle be stolen.

Obviously... I cannot speak to "that Officer's" actions, one way ot another. And I do not know what information was given to that Officer which made him believe that the firearm had been used in any crime. I have had folks outright lie to me about such things because they were trying to paint a picture to get others in trouble for personal reasons. And yes, when I found out... and had the evidence to prove it, I did use the "False report to a Police Officer" charge so maybe they would not do that again. My point, as you know, was that people f'up on reporting things and the Police really have no control over their faulty memories.

Yes, You are the exception... most folks have a difficult time telling you the serial number of any gun they own. But they can tell you every shot they fired with it and what their favorite ammo or range or holster is.

 

[RoadDawg]

Bought a Webley from a poster here (who ironically is now with the MSP). Doing the transfer at a barracks, we were told the gun was stolen. Much anguish, until MSP figured out that the serial number was for a different model of Webley. Took about 15 extra minutes to get it squared away.

I've seen that play out many times over the years. I recovered and investigated many stolen firearms over the years in B'moe Sh!tty. I also helped a coworker look up and contact owners to find out if they wanted their recovered stolen firearm back after recovery and court. It always bothered me when we were told... "Burn it. I do not want to ever see it again." Some really nice pieces went into the fires.

 

[Bob A]

I've seen that play out many times over the years. I recovered and investigated many stolen firearms over the years in B'moe Sh!tty. I also helped a coworker look up and contact owners to find out if they wanted their recovered stolen firearm back after recovery and court. It always bothered me when we were told... "Burn it. I do not want to ever see it again." Some really nice pieces went into the fires.

That's a real shame. Melting these things down is a waste of resources, and simply virtue signaling. Firearms slated for destruction should be priced according to market value, and paid to the owner. Auctioning them off with funds going to an appropriate entity (law enforcement, victim restitution, drunken office parties) would be far more fiscally sound, but doubtless too rational an approach for our civic leaders to comprehend.

 

[lazarus]

That's a real shame. Melting these things down is a waste of resources, and simply virtue signaling. Firearms slated for destruction should be priced according to market value, and paid to the owner. Auctioning them off with funds going to an appropriate entity (law enforcement, victim restitution, drunken office parties) would be far more fiscally sound, but doubtless too rational an approach for our civic leaders to comprehend.

Yeah I read something about a buyback somewhere recently where a “tommy gun” was part of the “haul”. Brought tears to my eyes. I hope the department decided to keep it and display it or something.

Blah, blah, unregistered (even worse if it was registered!) machine guns.

Frankly if you can prove it was manufactured prior to the ban and in the US it should be legally allowed to be registered.

 

[cmb]

So... I'm offering this story as a PSA to anyone who gets an unexpected "Disapproved" evaluation on a handgun application... stay calm, it just might not be you.

I found a nice single-action .45 Colt in PA and had it transferred to my favorite MD FFL (It was a little too new to be picked up directly on my FFL03). Everything went fine... did my 77R on my phone in the shop and prepared for my waiting period and figured that I could pick it up in time to shoot it for Father's day.

Last night at 7:30, I get an email from MSP... your application has been disapproved. If you want to appeal, submit a request in writing within 30 days. No explanation... no details... just "no soup for you". I'm in shock. I've bought over 100 regulated firearms (some recently), have an FFL03, an HQL, a WCP, am a designated collector, have a security clearance, am a police reserve officer, etc., etc. Other than a couple of traffic tickets, there is nothing in my background that could flag me. I don't even have a late library book.

I start thinking and worrying about this all night. In my attempt to fill out the form on my phone, could I have inadvertently have checked the wrong box? I go to the web portal dashboard and there is the disapproval (disapproval-other)... what does that mean? Search for it on the web... nothing. Make a late night call to a friend of mine who is an FFL-01... he doesn't know but checks his book... nothing. I double check my paperwork... nope it all looks right.

There is nothing I can do until the MSP opens in the morning, so I sit in bed with my brain working overtime and my BGOS kicking into full steam (I'm embarrassed to tell you some of the wild a$$ things I was fretting last night). I don't even want to think about the volume of stomach acid I generated last night. There weren't enough TUMS in the world to help.

8:00 am finally rolls around and I make a call to MSP expecting to get an administrative run-around (the lady on the other end was actually pretty helpful). I gave her my application number and 3 mins later she came back and said, it has nothing to do with you, the used gun that you were attempting to transfer came back as stolen.

So after a couple of short calls to my FFL and the one in PA (who was astonished and thinks it has to be a mistake), I think the sale will be voided and I should get my money back... and I'll have to buy myself another Father's day gift. It was a nice gun at a great price, but all things said and done, I hope that it gets back to its rightful owner. The PA FFL said that the gun came from the estate of a 93 year old collector and he bought 42 guns in that lot... he is going to check back with the estate, but said that he doubted very much that the last owner was involved in gun theft. I guess it is possible that he unknowingly bought a stolen gun himself. He also added that in 17 years as an FFL, this is the first time he's had to deal with something like this.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this in case anyone out there gets surprised by a disapproval. It may not be you, so take some TUMS and try and get some sleep.

P.S. No dogs were killed in the events described here.

If that Lady was Jacqueline Washington from licensing division, I can tell ya', she's one classy lady. She went above and beyond helping me get back on track after my card was hacked and everything had to be redone. Patient and professional from the start.

 

[Doctor_M]

If that Lady was Jacqueline Washington from licensing division, I can tell ya', she's one classy lady. She went above and beyond helping me get back on track after my card was hacked and everything had to be redone. Patient and professional from the start.

+100 Yes, it was her and she really put me at ease. She asked me who my FFL was and I said I was transferring through Baltimore's Best, and she responded, "Ah.. Dan!" She knows the MD firearms scene for sure.

 

[4g64loser]

Ms washington has emerged as the new ms brown (I believe her first name is Vanessa) who used to handle a lot of the gun stuff for licensing, including cleo signoff for nfa. Quite a knowledgeable woman.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

I am glad to hear a Ms Washington type is in her position much like the Ruger Management level lady Brenda Page who turned my damaged and dangerous Super Blackhawk into a brand new unit at virtually no charge to me except for my shipping cost and possible ffl fee to process the new one. Before landing in Mrs Page's hands, Ruger tried to blame me and my ammo to say a squib load caused a 4 -5 inch longitudinal crack in the 7 inch barrel. If I remember right, they said it even had damage at the forcing cone. They said they could sell me a replacement at a reduced cost. I pushed and pushed for a higher up, and to my fortune, I reached Ms Page. After explaining in writing and likely by phone my explanation of the scenario that the pistol had 200 or fewer rounds of Factory American Eagle ammo through it and nothing I did caused this. I stressed that if Ruger would not stand behind their guns,. I would likely not feel safe to shoot my 5-6 other Ruger handguns and rifles
and likely would sell them all off and never buy another. I am pretty sure my original SuperBlackhawk had a flawed barrel and I could have been injured as a result. I now call my replacement " Brenda Page" in her honor.

 

[beavisman1]

Dang...that is one crazy story. You'd think MDSP would give you or the FFL a call about the issue...SMH.

 

[Doctor_M]

The end of the story. The PA state police say the gun isn't stolen, the MD state police say it is. Nobody knows what the disconnect is. I just got my refund from the seller today, so it is no longer my problem. Wish them all well. I'm off to buy a different toy.

 

[slsc98]

I’ll only add to this much appreciated PSA that, if you want anything accomplished via the MSP licensing scheme, err, division, call first thing in the AM - the civilian females there have more energy and on the ball than a barrel full of m …

same story everywhere: if you want anything resembling top level action, go straight to the woman / women near the bottom of that entity’s org chart (or front reception desk)!

 

[jef955]

Jackie Washington is awsome, she's solved several problems for me in the past. She's been there a long time, and really knows the place inside and out. I'm guessing there was a problem with the way it was entered in NCIC - I used to find guns all the time where the serial number was entered with the wrong maufacturer make code, or perhaps you'de get multiple hits on a stolen gun serial number, with 2 or 3 different makes from different agencies.