DC sues 3 MD FFL’s

[Billyb]

18 USC 923 is talking about an FFL 003 , commonly known as a C&R . ( MDS has a C&R FAQ stickie , it gives lots of info .)

The Maryland Designated Collector LETTER is Not License.

All other procedures apply for Designated Collectors , Except for the One Gun a Month .

So it looks like FFLs are required to report multiple sales to someone not holding a FFL 003, or am I missing something?

 

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , it's true , been that way for a very long time .

 

[Billyb]

Yes , it's true , been that way for a very long time .

So that should really help their defense to say we reported to ATF and never heard anything from them saying it was a problem.

 

[FatTony]

This sounds eerily similar to the ATF gunwalking scandal, aka Operation Fast and Furious.
Although in this case the FFL wasn't informed of the straw purchase.

FT

 

[Squaregrouper]

So that should really help their defense to say we reported to ATF and never heard anything from them saying it was a problem.

I THINK the ATF needs to be notified if someone fills out two or more 4473's in under 48hrs. If you buy 2+ guns on the same form, the ATF doesn't need to be notified.
Don't quote me on the timeline, but it is something along the lines of filling out multiple forms in a short period of time. Buy a pistol, rifle and shotgun on one form at one time- no problem. Buy a pistol, then a rifle, then a shotgun- problem. (It is legal, but the FFL must inform the ATF that it happened)

 

[Defense Initiative]

I THINK the ATF needs to be notified if someone fills out two or more 4473's in under 48hrs. If you buy 2+ guns on the same form, the ATF doesn't need to be notified.
Don't quote me on the timeline, but it is something along the lines of filling out multiple forms in a short period of time. Buy a pistol, rifle and shotgun on one form at one time- no problem. Buy a pistol, then a rifle, then a shotgun- problem. (It is legal, but the FFL must inform the ATF that it happened)

With any firearm purchase, they are notified with the background check. Two or more pistols and a second form is generated, which notifies them of more than one purchase on the same form. Two handguns on separate forms in less than a week also generates a notification.

 

[Chauchat]

I guess it doesn’t apply to sovereign citizens either.

I don't know what that means. Either you are a citizen or you're not. The constitution of 1787 is the supreme law of the land or it is not. The supreme law of the land states the congress of the States has certain enumerated powers. One of those is legislative authority over a District not to exceed ten square miles, forts naval yards and other needful places.

Proof of that, or the historical analogue, is the Northwest Territory Acts of 1785 and 1787. Congress laid claim to the lands west of Pennsylvania and North of the River Ohio through The Treaty of 1783 and various Indian treaties. There was one exception and that was the Western Reserve lands own by Connecticut. Congress had no ownership or jurisdiction there.

That was the hold up for the Ohio lands being organized as a State. So how was the problem solved? Through an act of course with Connecticut. Please see:

statutes_at_large Vol. 2, U.S. Statutes at Large (1799-1813) page 56

Then nine days later they passed an Act to from two territorial governments in Northwest Territory.

But back to the sovereign citizen thing. All I know is people are fools if they think they have to take a license from Congress for any thing because they do not read the statutes and the Consitution. Citizens are not even required to apply for a social security number. It is a program and is only for government employees. But that is for another day.

As for stupidity coming out of the fifty State Houses... Grab your tar and feathers and have at it.

 

[Bob A]

So it looks like FFLs are required to report multiple sales to someone not holding a FFL 003, or am I missing something?

I find this confusing.

The 03FFL is useless in MD except in allowing a transfer of long guns between two 03FFL licensees. No 01FFL in MD has ever seen my 03FFL, nor would thy care to do so. It is only useful for purchases across state lines, which is outside MD's purview.

 

[BurkeM]

This seems to indicate that FFLs are required to report to ATF and MSP multiple sales to persons not holding that Type 03 license. I have not seen this issue discussed anywhere, so maybe I am missing something.

Brick & mortar FFL'S have that requirement. It's done routinely.

Reporting Multiple Firearms Sales or Other Dispositions | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

NEW To assist its efforts in investigating and combating the illegal movement of firearms along and across the Southwest border, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is now requiring all licensed Type 07 manufacturers and Type 08 importers (in addition to Type 01 dealers and...

www.atf.gov

Reporting Multiple Firearms Sales or Other Dispositions​

NEW To assist its efforts in investigating and combating the illegal movement of firearms along and across the Southwest border, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is now requiring all licensed Type 07 manufacturers and Type 08 importers (in addition to Type 01 dealers and Type 02 pawnbrokers who are already so required) in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to submit record information concerning multiple sales or other dispositions of certain rifles. Read the letter here. (June 2024)

The Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968 requires federal firearms licensees (FFLs) to send a report to ATF when there is a sale or other disposition of multiple firearms to the same purchaser within a certain time period.
ATF uses the information gathered from multiple sales or other disposition transactions to investigate possible firearms trafficking cases. If one or more firearms recovered from a crime are part of a multiple purchase, this could be an indicator of potential firearms trafficking. Crime guns recovered shortly after a multiple sale is known as a short time-to-crime ratio.

Individual Sales​

Under federal law, there are no recordkeeping requirements for transferring a firearm between two individuals who are not federal firearms licensees. However, there are individuals who cannot purchase or possess a firearm known as prohibited persons. As a seller, you should make every effort to ensure you are not transferring a firearm to a prohibited person.

Sales or Other Disposition of Handguns​

Licensees must report the sale or other disposition of two or more handguns if they occur at the same time or within five consecutive business days of each other.

Reporting Process for Pistols and Revolvers​

1. Fill out three copies of ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers.
2. Send the first copy to the ATF National Tracing Center no later than the close of business on the day that the multiple sale or other disposition occurs. Send by fax at 1-877-283-0288, email MultipleHandgunSalesForms@atf.gov(link sends e-mail), or mailto:
   U.S. Department of Justice
   NTC - MS
   P.O. Box 0279
   Kearneysville, WV 25430–0279
3. Send the second copy to the Chief Local Law Enforcement Official (CLEO). The CLEO is a local or state official designated to receive this form. If you do not know your CLEO, contact your local ATF office to find out.
   
4. Attach the third copy to the corresponding Firearms Transaction Record ATF Form 4473, executed upon delivery of the pistols or revolvers [Regulation 478.126a]

 

[RFBfromDE]

As for stupidity coming out of the fifty State Houses... Grab your tar and feathers and have at it.

Your dirty talk is making me horny!

 

[BurkeM]

So that should really help their defense to say we reported to ATF and never heard anything from them saying it was a problem.

Yes- they complied with all Federal and State laws on sales (unless there is evidence that they failed to file the ATF Form 3310.12)

 

[JohnnyE]

So that should really help their defense to say we reported to ATF and never heard anything from them saying it was a problem.

Yes- they complied with all Federal and State laws on sales (unless there is evidence that they failed to file the ATF Form 3310.12)

Demetrius Minor (the buyer/off the books seller of the arms in question) had MD designated collector status, so the one gun per month restriction did not apply to him, like I am sure is true for many of us here. Every transfer was accompanied by a 4473 and 77r, all of which came back NOT DISAPPROVED, and when required ATF Form 3310.12's were completed and filed with ATF. Engage has not had ATF compliance audit issues on thses issues.

When ATF grew suspicious of Mr. Minor they approached Engage seeking Engage's cooperation in setting up a sting. Engage cooperated with ATF and the transfer took place in the Engage shop where it was witnessed by ATF agents. It is interesting that plaintiffs' complaint lists seriel numbers of every firearm that was transferred except the gun transfered during the sting. Humm.

 

[bcr229]

Sales or Other Disposition of Handguns​

Licensees must report the sale or other disposition of two or more handguns if they occur at the same time or within five consecutive business days of each other.

Note that a "business day" as defined for an FFL is different than a "business day" for the rest of the world (Mon-Fri excluding holidays). For an FFL it's the days you have listed on your application as being open for business. So, a home-based guy open only on Saturdays to sling transfers will have five consecutive business days spanning more than a calendar month per my IOI.

 

[Doctor_M]

Few people know that Bach studied law.

He completed his lesser known Law Suite after a succession of Cello Suites.

Ahh, Bach!

 

[chuck]

When ATF grew suspicious of Mr. Minor they approached Engage seeking Engage's cooperation in setting up a sting. Engage cooperated with ATF and the transfer took place in the Engage shop where it was witnessed by ATF agents. It is interesting that plaintiffs' complaint lists seriel numbers of every firearm that was transferred except the gun transfered during the sting. Humm.

That’s a good inside scoop.

Didn’t see that mentioned in any news articles, just like none talked about the designated collector status.

 

[csanc123]

Demetrius Minor (the buyer/off the books seller of the arms in question) had MD designated collector status, so the one gun per month restriction did not apply to him, like I am sure is true for many of us here. Every transfer was accompanied by a 4473 and 77r, all of which came back NOT DISAPPROVED, and when required ATF Form 3310.12's were completed and filed with ATF. Engage has not had ATF compliance audit issues on thses issues.

When ATF grew suspicious of Mr. Minor they approached Engage seeking Engage's cooperation in setting up a sting. Engage cooperated with ATF and the transfer took place in the Engage shop where it was witnessed by ATF agents. It is interesting that plaintiffs' complaint lists seriel numbers of every firearm that was transferred except the gun transfered during the sting. Humm.

Wait...wtf. Engage worked with ATF and DC still pulling this BS?

 

[rseymorejr]

Wait...wtf. Engage worked with ATF and DC still pulling this BS?

No honor among thieves

 

[Art3]

No honor among thieves democrats

 

[JohnnyE]

Wait...wtf. Engage worked with ATF and DC still pulling this BS?

That's my understanding. Some speculate that because folks at Engage have been plaintiffs (successful ones at that) challenging governmental 2A infringments, they are subject to lawfare in retribution.

 

[MaxVO2]

How many insurance claims until you become uninsurable?

****Not many. Or, it simply becomes unaffordable and you do without until the next lawsuit puts you out of business. It's not easy being a gun shop in MoCo where the overwhelming majority of citizens living there seemingly either hate guns and want them banned from civilian ownership or want "sensible" gun control which includes severe taxation, onerous fees, and liability insurance for owners of firearms.

This is the crazy we live with here in MoCo.