Commercial Navy Luger

[mawkie]

-Been on pins and needles waiting what seemed like forever for this to arrive. Took 5 weeks to ship as the auction house lost my FFL. Resent and 3 days later the BBT is dropping off this beautiful Commercial Navy Luger from 1923. Absolutely stole this as the auction listed it as refinished. Where they got that idea from have no clue as the finish is original. I was able to track it down by SN in the Navy Luger list where it was marked as chambered in 9mm. The auction house had listed as .30 Luger. So it was up in the air until it arrived and it's in .30 Luger. One of the best buys I've had in years.
-Back in the early 1920's Germany was in shambles. Runaway inflation had destroyed the economy and DWM was desperate to keep the doors open. So Lugers were sold commercially and many were exported to the US. As to this commercial Navy, the best estimate is that approximately 1,000 were built with around 250 recorded in collector's records. -This is the later 1914 version of the iconic L04. A quick take down has the few marked parts matching. Grips are un-numbered. Trigger pull is, honestly, one of the worst I've experienced in a Luger. Heavy and mushy, not Swiss quality for sure. "Germany" export marked on the left side of the barrel.
-When I won the bid I knew that the only holster I wanted for it was an Audley. But the 6" version is duces hard to find. In the end it was Simpson Ltd who had one and lucky me the consignor had recently dropped the price to $475 which is as good as it gets for these, especially for one in such good condition. I jumped at the opportunity and it arrived well before the pistol!

 

[44man]

She’s beautiful!!!

 

[slsc98]

Boing!

 

[RCH]

That is a beautiful gun.

 

[dist1646]

Sweet!

 

[SmokeEaterPilot]

That piece is a true time capsule.

 

[joppaj]

Someday you need to arrange a photo shoot of your collection. You've shown some real beauties over the years.

 

[MilsurpDan]

Wow, that is one hell of a rig. Outstanding!

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Fortune favors the prepared.

Lucky ain’t no accident in this case.

Another beauty.

 

[drking2]

Beautiful

 

[somd_mustangs]

Glad you finally got it and it's exactly what you'd hoped for!
Well worth wait.

 

[calicojack]

Thanks for sharing and for the interesting write up. Even has a stock! One huge plus for being C&R. I did not follow the part about the Audley holster vs Simpson Ltd. Were those two holsters from the time period that would be correct?

 

[mawkie]

Thanks for sharing and for the interesting write up. Even has a stock! One huge plus for being C&R. I did not follow the part about the Audley holster vs Simpson Ltd. Were those two holsters from the time period that would be correct?

Yes. Audley was bought by Folsom after Francis Audley died in 1916. The Audley name was used on the holsters for a while before being replaced by Folsom. Not sure when but this Audley holster would be in the late teens/early 20s period. Initially didn't even know the 6" version of the Audley Luger holster existed until I saw one owned by one of the members of Jan Still's Luger Forum. Went to Simpson's site to find it as I'd never seen one anywhere else. Lucky timing on my part.

 

[linkstate]

Simply awesome OP!

Question for you if you feel like replying. I have a couple turn of the 19th century handguns (give or take) that I'm pretty sure have the original finish, or what's left of it.

Other than looking at a lot of originals, what do you look for to decide if something has been refinished? I know looking at markings can be a clue if they have soft edges or parts of markings are missing but sometimes that can be due to normal wear... In the case of your posted example, I would have thought not refinished as well. Refinished is fine if done well and priced to match...

 

[mawkie]

Simply awesome OP!

Question for you if you feel like replying. I have a couple turn of the 19th century handguns (give or take) that I'm pretty sure have the original finish, or what's left of it.

Other than looking at a lot of originals, what do you look for to decide if something has been refinished? I know looking at markings can be a clue if they have soft edges or parts of markings are missing but sometimes that can be due to normal wear... In the case of your posted example, I would have thought not refinished as well. Refinished is fine if done well and priced to match...

-You're right, it's a combination of features, knowledge of the finishes used by a specific manufacturer and experience. I'll use the French Navy issued MAB Model D as an example...
The original finish used pre-war was a black enamel as it was thought to give better protection in a salt water environment. The finish of the paint was semi-gloss. Post war many of the surviving examples were re-furbished when the paint finish was beat up from typical use. At this time the decision was made to forgo the paint finish and now they were zinc parkerized.
So what are you looking for in a genuine finish? Pre-war examples that were captured and brought back by GIs or escaped re-work will have that semi-gloss black enamel. If it's a very glossy or flat paint finish you are right to be skeptical. You would expect the finish so show some if not a lot of wear. If it's too perfect I get nervous. Markings should be crisp and strong under the paint.
-Post war examples will have that zinc based parkerizing and because you need to bead blast the finish to bare metal for the process you expect to see stamping edges that are weak and rounded. In this case it's not a detraction as it's an inevitable part of the process. Here's where an experienced eye is needed because zinc parking can take on various shades of color depending on the content of the steel. But typically a grey hue from light to dark and in some cases it takes on a greenish hue (US arms like M1s and M1 carbines are a great example of this). French parking will be a grey hue, no green tint, and you're now looking for some wear typical to parkerizing. Remember that this is a pistol finish that is around 80 years old. So too clean and uniform and red flags are popping up for me. A black parkerized finish is manganese based and you definitely know that's a modern refinish.
-When it comes to blued finishes you have to know what an original period finish looked like for a specific model. In the case of Commercial Lugers you have two types: those built post WWI from existing parts inventory which will have a new blued finish and those which were reworked from issued arms. In the case of reworks they will definitely have all the tell-tale signs of a professional factory refinish. For instance, the date on the chamber is typically ground away leaving a classic commercial Luger "blank" chamber. Yet in the case of early Lugers, they will still have unit marks. This is where knowledge comes into play as the practice of unit markings was deleted early in the war. So anything post 1914 won't have them, only early P08, L04 and L08 Lugers are expected to have unit markings.
-So on some Commercial Lugers a reworked finish is not only OK but expected. But it needs to be a factory refinish. Heavy edge loss and over polishing are signs of a modern refinish. This is where reference books and 'net forums with an experienced knowledge base are so important. That's where you go to see what an original finish is expected to look like. Little stuff like which parts were blued and which were "strawed" and what the strawing will look like 100 years later. Too strong a straw finish and again, red flags. In the case of my other Navy Luger the take-down lever was blued when it should have been strawed. Definitely a replacement part.
-And when in doubt don't feel shy about asking for a more experienced set of eyes. I'll admit to frequently leaning on good friend somd_mustangs and his trained eye for a second opinion. Because sometimes it's difficult to discern if a finish is indeed correct, some gunsmiths are just that good. Especially if the intent is to deceive because there's big money to be made if done well. So before you plunk down a pile of cash, reach out to the community and get a second opinion. I'd like to think that we're all here to learn and support each other.

 

[engineerbrian]

Someday you need to arrange a photo shoot of your collection. You've shown some real beauties over the years.

I think Mawkies collection could justify a hardback coffee table book.

 

[linkstate]

-You're right, it's a combination of features, knowledge of the finishes used by a specific manufacturer and experience. I'll use the French Navy issued MAB Model D as an example...
The original finish used pre-war was a black enamel as it was thought to give better protection in a salt water environment. The finish of the paint was semi-gloss. Post war many of the surviving examples were re-furbished when the paint finish was beat up from typical use. At this time the decision was made to forgo the paint finish and now they were zinc parkerized.
So what are you looking for in a genuine finish? Pre-war examples that were captured and brought back by GIs or escaped re-work will have that semi-gloss black enamel. If it's a very glossy or flat paint finish you are right to be skeptical. You would expect the finish so show some if not a lot of wear. If it's too perfect I get nervous. Markings should be crisp and strong under the paint.
-Post war examples will have that zinc based parkerizing and because you need to bead blast the finish to bare metal for the process you expect to see stamping edges that are weak and rounded. In this case it's not a detraction as it's an inevitable part of the process. Here's where an experienced eye is needed because zinc parking can take on various shades of color depending on the content of the steel. But typically a grey hue from light to dark and in some cases it takes on a greenish hue (US arms like M1s and M1 carbines are a great example of this). French parking will be a grey hue, no green tint, and you're now looking for some wear typical to parkerizing. Remember that this is a pistol finish that is around 80 years old. So too clean and uniform and red flags are popping up for me. A black parkerized finish is manganese based and you definitely know that's a modern refinish.
-When it comes to blued finishes you have to know what an original period finish looked like for a specific model. In the case of Commercial Lugers you have two types: those built post WWI from existing parts inventory which will have a new blued finish and those which were reworked from issued arms. In the case of reworks they will definitely have all the tell-tale signs of a professional factory refinish. For instance, the date on the chamber is typically ground away leaving a classic commercial Luger "blank" chamber. Yet in the case of early Lugers, they will still have unit marks. This is where knowledge comes into play as the practice of unit markings was deleted early in the war. So anything post 1914 won't have them, only early P08, L04 and L08 Lugers are expected to have unit markings.
-So on some Commercial Lugers a reworked finish is not only OK but expected. But it needs to be a factory refinish. Heavy edge loss and over polishing are signs of a modern refinish. This is where reference books and 'net forums with an experienced knowledge base are so important. That's where you go to see what an original finish is expected to look like. Little stuff like which parts were blued and which were "strawed" and what the strawing will look like 100 years later. Too strong a straw finish and again, red flags. In the case of my other Navy Luger the take-down lever was blued when it should have been strawed. Definitely a replacement part.
-And when in doubt don't feel shy about asking for a more experienced set of eyes. I'll admit to frequently leaning on good friend somd_mustangs and his trained eye for a second opinion. Because sometimes it's difficult to discern if a finish is indeed correct, some gunsmiths are just that good. Especially if the intent is to deceive because there's big money to be made if done well. So before you plunk down a pile of cash, reach out to the community and get a second opinion. I'd like to think that we're all here to learn and support each other.

Oh wow. Thank you for that detailed reply. I’m going to have to read it again a couple times to make sure I caught everything.