Call Out Instructors Providing Incorrect Info

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  • Mark75H

    HVAC Expert
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    14,817
    Outside the Gates
    It's not safe, it's confusing. Is it mandatory to mention other state's laws?
    All an instructor needs to say is " It will behoove you to read the carry laws in the state(s) in which you plan to travel.
    Save the confusion.
    The trouble is FINDING them to read. There are a lot of resources that are either outright bogus or outdated.
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    22,511
    Underground Bunker
    I think as adults sitting in the classes have the ability to distinguish fact from fiction, i don't think it is the end of the world as we know it.
    But i do wish they would phase it in a way of opinion VS facts
     

    Mark75H

    HVAC Expert
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    14,817
    Outside the Gates
    Way back when I first became an NRA Instructor, you needed to be an LEO or Lawyer to teach parts of Firearm Safety In the Home. The reason was that it is assumed that LEO's and lawyers know all the laws.

    About the only cops I knew who knew all the laws are the younsters that just graduated the academy. :rolleyes:
    I don't think you actually had to be LEO or a member of the bar, but the NRA did (and I think still does) want the law lecture done by someone with some agency connection to the state. There was a watershed breakthrough on the NRA requirement to be an agent of the state to pontificate on law in an NRA class when one well known and respected instructor/TC realize that having the QHIC actually does give you legitimate "agency"
     

    Mark75H

    HVAC Expert
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    14,817
    Outside the Gates
    I think as adults sitting in the classes have the ability to distinguish fact from fiction, i don't think it is the end of the world as we know it.
    But i do wish they would phase it in a way of opinion VS facts
    The problem is when such is presented as fact.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 22, 2009
    50,371
    Bel Air
    The problem is few instructors are actually legally trained lawyers or paralegals.

    When it comes to teaching the laws, the problem is interpretations of what is written.

    These interpretations is exactly why we get legal battles In our courts over issues that don’t always pertain to the actual case of guilt or innocence in a criminal trial. Some of which even make it to SCOTUS.

    Therefore… when it comes to teaching the laws of a state. One needs to leave a little leeway in what the instructor is teaching unless it is just way off base and incorrect.

    Also there is a difference between an instructor who may say something incorrectly but is being overly cautious and Keeps you out of jail, versus one who is incorrect and his error is something that gets you arrested and in jail.

    Example…. Telling you not to have magazines larger then 10 rounds is much safer then telling you that magazine capacity is not something to worry about and you can travel anywhere in the USA with a 20 round mag.

    The other portion of most state permit classes also include firearm safety, storage, cleaning, and operation.

    If they are teaching unsafe or incorrect policies and procedures and protocols in these areas, that’s another story. Those are pretty much hard set, and do not rely on opinions and interpretations. The rules for firearm safety are pretty much hardset in stone. Always, Always, Always. Any NRA graduate will know those!

    If you have an issue with an instructor and what they are teaching. The. REPORT them.

    I am Certified For Maryland, Utah, Texas, and Illinois and NRA. Each state and the NRA have procedures if an instructor isn’t teaching what they should, is being unsafe, or isn’t teaching safety correctly. The states I am certified with, do take complaints seriously. They do investigate. If they find issues they do correct them quite promptly.
    Every MDS regular knows the laws well. These instructors giving erroneous information aren’t even trying.
     

    miles71

    Active Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,100
    Belcamp, Md.
    The problem is few instructors are actually legally trained lawyers or paralegals.

    When it comes to teaching the laws, the problem is interpretations of what is written.

    These interpretations is exactly why we get legal battles In our courts over issues that don’t always pertain to the actual case of guilt or innocence in a criminal trial. Some of which even make it to SCOTUS.

    Therefore… when it comes to teaching the laws of a state. One needs to leave a little leeway in what the instructor is teaching unless it is just way off base and incorrect.

    Also there is a difference between an instructor who may say something incorrectly but is being overly cautious and Keeps you out of jail, versus one who is incorrect and his error is something that gets you arrested and in jail.

    Example…. Telling you not to have magazines larger then 10 rounds is much safer then telling you that magazine capacity is not something to worry about and you can travel anywhere in the USA with a 20 round mag.

    The other portion of most state permit classes also include firearm safety, storage, cleaning, and operation.

    If they are teaching unsafe or incorrect policies and procedures and protocols in these areas, that’s another story. Those are pretty much hard set, and do not rely on opinions and interpretations. The rules for firearm safety are pretty much hardset in stone. Always, Always, Always. Any NRA graduate will know those!

    If you have an issue with an instructor and what they are teaching. The. REPORT them.

    I am Certified For Maryland, Utah, Texas, and Illinois and NRA. Each state and the NRA have procedures if an instructor isn’t teaching what they should, is being unsafe, or isn’t teaching safety correctly. The states I am certified with, do take complaints seriously. They do investigate. If they find issues they do correct them quite promptly.
    No instructor who is not a lawyer should be “interpreting” Md law. They should ONLY be making students aware of the law a providing them a copy of the laws pertaining to the course content.

    TD
     

    kenpo333

    Active Member
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 18, 2012
    3,261
    Salisbury Maryland
    On Maryland Firearms laws:

    If Frosh and 4 other previous Attorney Generals were in the room, along with every lawyer holding a seat in the General Assembly was in the room, along with all 24 States' Attorneys from each jurisdiction, you STILL wouldn't get a comprehensive education on gun laws in MD after 16 weeks of instruction.

    IMHO, your best source on Maryland Firearms laws is the MSI website.
    Agreed! We have about 10 insturctors that we socialize with and theri alway some disagreement on Maryland law especially after the third bourbon.
     

    miles71

    Active Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,100
    Belcamp, Md.
    Every teacher/instructor makes mistakes. Also, people don’t listen very often. I have had students misquote me within seconds of what I said. This is why I am careful when I present anything law related. I give all my students a copy of the actual laws, but I also teach them what I think is best. I make it VERY clear what Md says and what I think is best.

    TD
     

    Mark75H

    HVAC Expert
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    14,817
    Outside the Gates
    Every teacher/instructor makes mistakes. Also, people don’t listen very often. I have had students misquote me within seconds of what I said. This is why I am careful when I present anything law related. I give all my students a copy of the actual laws, but I also teach them what I think is best. I make it VERY clear what Md says and what I think is best.

    TD
    I agree, there is no substitute for putting hard copies in their hands.
     

    CanDoEZ

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 23, 2008
    2,469
    SoMD
    Are the training materials marked as proprietary intellectual property, and it's just a copy/paste of state open source website information?
     

    Mark75H

    HVAC Expert
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    14,817
    Outside the Gates
    Are the training materials marked as proprietary intellectual property, and it's just a copy/paste of state open source website information?
    There is only the required subjects and an example cirriculae. There are no actual training materials. Instructors are self responsible for filling in the blanks.
     

    BurkeM

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2014
    889
    Baltimore
    Are the training materials marked as proprietary intellectual property, and it's just a copy/paste of state open source website information?
    What "training materials?" You can't call a copy of a public statute yours.

    Individual lesson plans are IP, and I know of no instructor who releases a lesson plan to each student.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Active Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    25,937
    I don't think you actually had to be LEO or a member of the bar, but the NRA did (and I think still does) want the law lecture done by someone with some agency connection to the state. There was a watershed breakthrough on the NRA requirement to be an agent of the state to pontificate on law in an NRA class when one well known and respected instructor/TC realize that having the QHIC actually does give you legitimate "agency"


    Nope , had to be Lawyer or LEO , at the time of the roll out of PPIH .
     

    smokey0118

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    28,841
    Something that may be holding someone back from lighting up the source of their training is the risk that the trainer gets nuked by the state, and now your permit is invalidated. Not sure if that's a thing, but when I saw the UTMs for the live-fire part at WaS I was thinking, "ohhhh boy, I hope I'm not going to lose my permit down the road and be out $350 if they get their certs yanked". It feels like you're acting against your own self-interest to speak up about problems you see in the mandatory training.

    It's something that wouldn't be an issue at all if the training wasn't a state requirement to exercise your 2a rights. In that case, if a trainer sucked, you could just lay down a detailed review and see people choose different instructors until that one fixes their classes.
     

    Brychan

    Active Member
    Apr 24, 2009
    7,651
    Baltimore
    This is why it should be up to the state to provide the training that they require. A video on line, so that everyone is getting the same information. Watch the video, print the certificate. Hells bells the military really embraced video training modules. As a contractor I spent at least 20 hours a year training on everything from lab safety, spotting espionage and folks working for foreign agencies, defensive driving in Falujah, and anything else they could think of, whether it even came close to what our job was. Most were interactive with tests to see if you actually paid attention.
     
    Oct 29, 2021
    740
    Dallas, texas
    In the department of be careful what you ask for :

    If Md required classes to be tought by only lawyers , waiting lists would be measured in years , not weeks and months .

    And lawyers actually knowledgeable in Firearms law is a subset of lawyers knowledgeable in Criminal law , which is a subset of all lawyers . A real estate or wills & trusts lawyer is as likely to ignorant of firearms law , as the typical gun store clerk .

    ****************************

    If an instructor is teaching an actual established curriculum from a recognized entity , ie , in addition to your W&C cert , your recieve a certificate from NRA or USCCA , and the instructor flubs that , those Orgs want to know . Likewise , if an instructor flubs a Utah class ( which does have a specified class outline ) , Utah BCI wants to know .

    A stand alone Maryland W&C Class , you don't have much practical recourse .
    I agree fully. I am just making a statement of fact. You would think law enforcement officers would have studied law more, or at least have a degree in law they are going to enforce it.
     
    Oct 29, 2021
    740
    Dallas, texas
    No instructor who is not a lawyer should be “interpreting” Md law. They should ONLY be making students aware of the law a providing them a copy of the laws pertaining to the course content.

    TD
    I agree fully. Which is what I do. I cover a basic a of what the law entails, but tell them to seek a lawyer for father advice i they have questions. i err on the side of caution.
     

    ICW2019

    Member
    Mar 8, 2012
    312
    Eastern Shore
    Something that may be holding someone back from lighting up the source of their training is the risk that the trainer gets nuked by the state, and now your permit is invalidated. Not sure if that's a thing, but when I saw the UTMs for the live-fire part at WaS I was thinking, "ohhhh boy, I hope I'm not going to lose my permit down the road and be out $350 if they get their certs yanked". It feels like you're acting against your own self-interest to speak up about problems you see in the mandatory training.

    It's something that wouldn't be an issue at all if the training wasn't a state requirement to exercise your 2a rights. In that case, if a trainer sucked, you could just lay down a detailed review and see people choose different instructors until that one fixes their classes.
    There's more eyes on instructors right now then you might know. Especially for the shortened time frame classes.
     

    eruby

    Confederate Jew
    MDS Supporter
    There's more eyes on instructors right now then you might know. Especially for the shortened time frame classes.
    Are there MSP certified instructors offering classes less than 16 hours?

    If so, that's stupid of them.

    And if an instructor is going to give out false/wrong info, and make up requirements on the fly, it would be really stupid to do so in a course advertised as less than 16 hours.
     

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