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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,630
    Probably. Usually the sound alerts the deer, but I haven't seen one move that drastically before now. At 350 fps, I wouldn't figure it would have been an issue.
    Bows are often a little overrated, it even if true to speed, arrows slow down fast and you have to arc it a fair amount at 60yds. The actual distance the arrow covers isn’t 180 feet for 60yds. It’s more like 190. Plus slowing down the whole way. A 60yd shot with a 350fps from the arrow has probably slowed to around 300-320fps by the time it’s gotten out there. Plus as I’d mentioned in my earlier post, there is lag time from the moment you decide to pull the trigger, to when your finger pulls the trigger and then the bow releases the arrow. 3/4-1 second. And perhaps a little longer. Though the deer only hears or sees something for 2/3-3/4 of a second.

    That said, for humans reaction time to a sound or visual stimulus is about 200ms to start moving (like to dodge something). It takes about half a second total to move to the side of something if you are poised to react.

    A deer is almost always poised to react. So figure you’ve got at most half a second of flight time before it’s likely moved.

    The faster the bolt, the less time between when the sound gets to the deer and the arrow gets to the deer, on top of less flight time.

    But IMHO, a crossbow at best shouldn’t be shot at something further than the range in feet divided by the bow speed equaling more than .5. And that would be extreme range. A compound bow isn’t as restricted because it is so much quieter. Though if the deer sees you shooting, that arrow is traveling even slower and you’ve got more arc and it might decide to take a step or two on its own anyway.

    So a 400fps is maybe at most 200ft. A 350 is at most 175. A 450 225ft. But IMHO that’s all extreme Hail Mary range. Closer is always better.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,630
    None. Not sure how that makes it unethical. From reading a bowhunting forum, the western bowhunters consider that (and longer) the norm with slower bows. Will I try from that distance again this season? Probably.
    As I pointed out, bow. Bows are rather quiet, so deer often don’t react to them till the arrow is hitting them. Crossbows aren’t remotely silent and all deer will string jump from one. Bows are harder to be accurate with because of the slower speed and more likely a deer moves on its own. IMHO, I wouldn’t be taking any 60yds shot with a compound bow out west or in the east.

    I’ve had deer string jump and generate a miss at 30yds before. And I am positive the deer reacted and generated a miss, it because my aim was crappy. Double the distance is a ton more time for them to move.

    Also how accurate is your cross bow at 60yds? Your bolts? I’ve been learning more and more as I practice and try more things. I’ve got a large number of hours and likely at least a couple of hundred shots on my crossbow and different bolts. At best my bow can keep about a 3” group at 60yds on a dead still day. Plenty enough. But for my best three bolts it keeps about a 5” group at that distance. That’s getting very iffy. A little bit of even a light variable breeze can open that up another 2 or 3 inches at 60yds. That’s just too large. Actually breezy or windy can throw the group to a foot at that distance. A 5mph cross breeze will throw the arrow off a little over 4 inches at 60yds.

    If I grab my stack of a dozen bolts and just shoot them all, that 60yd group on a calm day is about 10” because a couple of the bolts just hit to fairly different points of impact than other ones.

    The few guys I’ve heard credibly claim they take 60 and 70yd shots with bows, they are shooting elk, which are a lot larger, are slower to react (it’s a lot more mass to get moving!). And frankly many of them (regularly) end up missing the vitals and end up losing the animal or are tracking it the next day for half a mile.
     

    Ecestu

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2016
    1,406
    Decided to give Myrtle Grove a shot today, and give my normal spot a rest. I have never had any luck with deer there, for various reasons. I thought I would exact my revenge on the squirrel population, so I grabbed the RAR. As I walk the perimeter, not a squirrel in sight, but of course I see a couple deer within 20 yards. I get back to the truck to change weapons to the bow and walk back out, of course the squirrels come out and no deer in sight. As I was driving out, the house across the street was having some kind of deer party. There must have been at least 7 of them standing around. Oh well. I'll hit my normal WMA tomorrow.
     

    Archeryrob

    Undecided on a great many things
    Mar 7, 2013
    2,966
    Washington Co. - Fairplay
    40 yards is in the area consider to be pushing it on deer with a bow. This is part of the reason many bow hunters do not like long shoots. I have know way too many guys that have shot deer in the gut or rear leg because the deer moved in the time between release and arrow arrival. I absolutely hate hearing Ravin talk abut thier 100 yard shot and they know guys take that as a hunting shot when they are talking about it.

    Sound travels at 1100 FPS and your bow shoots 350FPS, or so they say. Put in a chrono and I bet you're 335 or so. at 40 yards your arrow will have moved about 15 yards when the sound arrives at the deer. that is about 1/3 the distance. At 30 yards it is almost 1/2 the distance. I personally have shoot deer from 40yards and liver shot one, that moved, and spent a lot of time waiting and blood trailing. I swore I wouldn't do it again.

    Guns are way different. Many pistol rounds travel at the speed of sound or close. Rifles can be 2 to 2.5 times faster than sound.

    Then there is the Grant Wood video on deer head placement. He video'd two does. Guy shot the doe with head up and the doe next to her was head down and could drop her body faster and change the shot placement completely.
     
    Last edited:

    Ecestu

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2016
    1,406
    40 yards is in the area consider to be pushing it on deer with a bow. This is part of the reason many bow hunters do not like long shoots. I have know way too many guys that have shot deer in the gut or rear leg because the deer moved in the time between release and arrow arrival. I absolutely hate hearing Ravin talk abut thier 100 yard shot and they know guys take that as a hunting shot when they are talking about it.

    Sound travels at 1100 FPS and your bow shoots 350FPS, or so they say. Put in a chrono and I bet you're 335 or so. at 40 yards your arrow will have moved about 15 yards when the sound arrives at the deer. that is about 1/3 the distance. At 30 yards it is almost 1/2 the distance. I personally have shoot deer from 40yards and liver shot one, that moved, and spent a lot of time waiting and blood trailing. I swore I wouldn't do it again.

    Guns are way different. Many pistol rounds travel at the speed of sound or close. Rifles can be 2 to 2.5 times faster than sound.

    Then there is the Grant Wood video on deer head placement. He video'd two does. Guy shot the doe with head up and the doe next to her was head down and could drop her body faster and change the shot placement completely.
    Good info, but I still find it crazy that all of the action happens in under a second.
     

    Hibs

    Active Member
    Dec 23, 2015
    930
    Maryland
    The past three years I've been under 5 a year. Normally average 8-14. Best year was 22 deer. I stopped counting the total once I passed 200.

    Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
    I struggle to get one deer a year just for some meat and you’re out here with those numbers… ‍fml … I assume you’re on private land ?
     
    Last edited:

    sclag22

    Active Member
    Jan 9, 2013
    646
    Fred Co.
    I struggle to get one deer a year just for some meat and you’re out here with those numbers… ‍fml … I assume you’re on private land ?
    Was thinking the same thing. Especially with meat prices going through the roof, I was hoping to bag 3-4 maybe. 2 was my previous best...I do not get out as often as I would like though, with 4 kids..
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,508
    I struggle to get one deer a year just for some meat and you’re out here with those numbers… ‍fml … I assume you’re on private land ?
    I'm not sure about now, but he used to manage a place for crop deprivation. They had a lot of deer.
     

    Archeryrob

    Undecided on a great many things
    Mar 7, 2013
    2,966
    Washington Co. - Fairplay
    Good info, but I still find it crazy that all of the action happens in under a second.
    it does, and deer react fast!

    pull up YouTube for "string jump deer" and you'll just see videos that amaze you. A guy shooting high on doe and she drops and it goes right over her back and completely misses her.

    Here is one as 15 - 18 yards. That is close, but must be a noisy bow.
    [YT]9_B9yrgee5o[/YT]
     

    Ecestu

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2016
    1,406
    it does, and deer react fast!

    pull up YouTube for "string jump deer" and you'll just see videos that amaze you. A guy shooting high on doe and she drops and it goes right over her back and completely misses her.

    Here is one as 15 - 18 yards. That is close, but must be a noisy bow.
    [YT]9_B9yrgee5o[/YT]

    Lol. That's a mangy looking doe! Not sure I would have taken the shot...
     

    Archeryrob

    Undecided on a great many things
    Mar 7, 2013
    2,966
    Washington Co. - Fairplay
    Lol. That's a mangy looking doe! Not sure I would have taken the shot...
    Stop judging the hair. You can't eat the hair, or the antlers. They are all made out of meat.

    They are especially good pressure canned in glass ball jars. I ran out this year and will kill one doe just for canning. Then I will can neck, shank, shoulder and rump in different jars to see what should be canned or ground. Preference wise. I canned rump last year and ran out and, and ... my God, I miss it dearly.
     

    Ecestu

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2016
    1,406
    Stop judging the hair. You can't eat the hair, or the antlers. They are all made out of meat.

    They are especially good pressure canned in glass ball jars. I ran out this year and will kill one doe just for canning. Then I will can neck, shank, shoulder and rump in different jars to see what should be canned or ground. Preference wise. I canned rump last year and ran out and, and ... my God, I miss it dearly.
    I may have to give canning a shot on my next deer. Guess I'll Amazon Prime some supplies.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,630
    40 yards is in the area consider to be pushing it on deer with a bow. This is part of the reason many bow hunters do not like long shoots. I have know way too many guys that have shot deer in the gut or rear leg because the deer moved in the time between release and arrow arrival. I absolutely hate hearing Ravin talk abut thier 100 yard shot and they know guys take that as a hunting shot when they are talking about it.

    Sound travels at 1100 FPS and your bow shoots 350FPS, or so they say. Put in a chrono and I bet you're 335 or so. at 40 yards your arrow will have moved about 15 yards when the sound arrives at the deer. that is about 1/3 the distance. At 30 yards it is almost 1/2 the distance. I personally have shoot deer from 40yards and liver shot one, that moved, and spent a lot of time waiting and blood trailing. I swore I wouldn't do it again.

    Guns are way different. Many pistol rounds travel at the speed of sound or close. Rifles can be 2 to 2.5 times faster than sound.

    Then there is the Grant Wood video on deer head placement. He video'd two does. Guy shot the doe with head up and the doe next to her was head down and could drop her body faster and change the shot placement completely.
    On your last. Watch videos of deer react as well as hunting situations, that’s right on. Deer with head up are more likely to see something, but deer head down physically move faster in their reaction. It’s like the difference between someone with head on a swivel starting to run and a guy not paying a lot of attention, but down in running blocks poised to run. The head down deer is closer to being poised to blind off and the deer head up has to lower its body a lot more to start bouncing off.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,630
    it does, and deer react fast!

    pull up YouTube for "string jump deer" and you'll just see videos that amaze you. A guy shooting high on doe and she drops and it goes right over her back and completely misses her.

    Here is one as 15 - 18 yards. That is close, but must be a noisy bow.
    [YT]9_B9yrgee5o[/YT]

    That must be a crazy noisy bow. That is one other interweaving but of data. Compound bows aren’t just slower than crossbows, the release also takes a lot longer. So what might be a 50-100ms release for a crossbow to then send a bolt on its way at 300-450fps takes a compound bow maybe 200ms to send an arrow on its way at 240-300fps. So if the bow is noisy, it’s a much bigger impact. The crossbow even at the same velocity has a much shorter release. That compound bow has, what? About 28-30 inches of draw it’s accelerating the arrow over. A crossbow is about 12-14 inches.

    Also I’d wonder if perhaps the release for the ladies bow was really noisy, not so much the bow itself. I don’t personally do compounds. I have shot them. I have heard some LOUD releases that make a “ptung” sound as they let go of the bow string. Not nearly as loud as a crossbow, but plenty loud enough I’d expect it to cause a deer to jump.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,630
    Stop judging the hair. You can't eat the hair, or the antlers. They are all made out of meat.

    They are especially good pressure canned in glass ball jars. I ran out this year and will kill one doe just for canning. Then I will can neck, shank, shoulder and rump in different jars to see what should be canned or ground. Preference wise. I canned rump last year and ran out and, and ... my God, I miss it dearly.
    The little button I got earlier this season was warty as hell. I was wondering if it was bad diseased. Did some research. Nope. Just deer warts. Which are not communicable to humans. The insides looked totally fine. It manifests as what looks and feels like cysts on the deer, especially heavy on the face.
     

    67temp

    Active Member
    Jun 25, 2009
    901
    Gettysburg, PA
    I struggle to get one deer a year just for some meat and you’re out here with those numbers… ‍fml … I assume you’re on private land ?
    I have private land in Baltimore and Howard counties for hunting.
    I'm not sure about now, but he used to manage a place for crop deprivation. They had a lot of deer.

    Correct! We actually haven't done crop damage hunting in the past two years. Either we did our job finally or the heard is getting hit with something viral because observation numbers are way down. My hunting has also been cut way down since moving to PA. The crop damage is almost like a 2nd job, it's not fun to be hunting in july when it's 100* out or when it's raining.
     

    Archeryrob

    Undecided on a great many things
    Mar 7, 2013
    2,966
    Washington Co. - Fairplay
    I may have to give canning a shot on my next deer. Guess I'll Amazon Prime some supplies.
    I got the All American 915 and love it. Wish I had the 921 as mine can only do 10 pint or 7 quarts at a time. But i doubt the 921 would fit on the stove in the house and have to go on the propane burner outside. 75 minutes for pints and 90 for quarts, but a quart of meat is family size. I can make 3 pulled deer sandwiches from one pint. The best part is easy meals with pre cooked meat and no freezer space. Fat comes to the top on a hard ring and tendons melt out. I'll run one cooking session every night during the week. Then let it sit and pop it in the morning to get the jars out. It is amazingly tender. Drain the liquid and you can mash it like pulled pork with the back of the fork.

    Can of deer, can of cream of mushroom soup heat and over mashed potatoes. Spices to taste. Easy meal.

    My favorite. 1 small onion, chopped green pepper and fry them. I add 2 diced potatoes many times, or can of refried bean if you want mexican. Add 1 pint of deer and fajita spices. heat it all and toss on a wrap with cheese and maybe hot sauce. or 2 pints, 4 potatoes and large onion and don't cook for days. :D

    I have canned pork shoulder and chicken leg quarters cut up. The fat in both boil out and make greasy jars. Got to clean the damn jars when done to put on the shelf. Deer is my favorite to can because of lack of fat. Saw a lady pre cooking leg quarters and then canning them and the broth she made. Looked easier than raw like I did. took me two hours to debone 20# of leg quarters.
     

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