ATF & AACO Police investigating purchases of 80% items.

[lazarus]

Looks like they are harassing retailers

The retailer were the shops selling to the dealers here who are selling at gun shows. I realize I am splitting hairs. It’s when ATF and police are harassing Brownell’s, Midway, etc. is when I’ll worry.

They are harassing Poly80...but in that case it is somewhat unique case there.

 

[lazarus]

Man, they should make robbery, homicide, and assault with a deadly weapon illegal to deal with that. Rather than cracking down on the legal business of 80% firearms, the focus should be on locking up criminals and keeping them locked up.

Sure but if police are routinely finding them in the hands of criminals, why wouldn’t you try to figure out how they are getting them and putting a stop to it?

If it’s completely legal, not much you can do. If someone is doing something illegal along the way, go after them.

 

[dblas]

I think it’s more the dealing. If you notice the article they were harassing guys who had bought several hundred at a time and selling at gun shows (which ATF and police have also nabbed several criminals buying 80% from the same or similar gun show dealers of 80s and also a couple guys buying in bulk and making them for criminals). The only harassing of individual purchasers of 80% I’ve seen are criminals who have bought them (not sure you can call that harassing in that case) or guys who bought poly80 buy, build, shoot kits that the ATF is arguing aren’t legal.

And on the last...ATF might actually be right if you look at the letter of the law. Or if they aren’t right, it’s skating right on the razors edge of what might be permissible under the law.

Once they start harassing retailers and regular end purchasers of 80% I’ll start worrying.

Then start worrying, because the guy in Anne Arundel county is a retailer, complete with a web site and a business registered in Maryland.

 

[dblas]

The retailer were the shops selling to the dealers here who are selling at gun shows. I realize I am splitting hairs. It’s when ATF and police are harassing Brownell’s, Midway, etc. is when I’ll worry.

They are harassing Poly80...but in that case it is somewhat unique case there.

So, you are OK with ATF harassing dealers but not larger, national "retailers"?

Do I understand that correctly?

 

[rseymorejr]

By definition the retailer is the person that sells it to the end user. So in this case I guess the retailer is the felon who is completeing them and selling hem to other felons. (something that is already illegal)

 

[Muleskinner]

I think it’s more the dealing. If you notice the article they were harassing guys who had bought several hundred at a time and selling at gun shows (which ATF and police have also nabbed several criminals buying 80% from the same or similar gun show dealers of 80s and also a couple guys buying in bulk and making them for criminals). The only harassing of individual purchasers of 80% I’ve seen are criminals who have bought them (not sure you can call that harassing in that case) or guys who bought poly80 buy, build, shoot kits that the ATF is arguing aren’t legal.

And on the last...ATF might actually be right if you look at the letter of the law. Or if they aren’t right, it’s skating right on the razors edge of what might be permissible under the law.

Once they start harassing retailers and regular end purchasers of 80% I’ll start worrying.

Every single 80% frame or receiver on the market today had to pass muster with the ATF who had to provide a letter of compliance to the manufacturer before anything could go to market. now the ATF is talking out of both sides of its mouth. Either Congress passes a law that makes 80% frames and receivers illegal, regulated firearms or something else the ATF has no power to make legislation. They've already said that 80% receivers and frames are not firearms and are perfectly legal.. so if the alphabet boys come knocking on your door without a warrant I would strongly suggest that you tell them to pound sand.

 

[lazarus]

I am not okay with harassment. However, if it turns out they traced a large number of the 80s that are getting turned in to guns in the hands of criminals to the dealers they were asking for searches then it probably make sense to look closer.

I am not okay with the ATF’s behavior in this case demanding to seize property and only backing off when it is clear the person they are dealing with will lawyer up. Threatening a warrant unless the person does what they want anyway.

Wouldn’t you want to figure out the how and why of criminals getting guns. Are they stealing them themselves? Is someone stealing most of them and providing them. Is someone making all of them? Is there something about the dealers they are getting them from that makes it easier or more likely for the criminals to be getting them from those dealers.

An 80% is perfectly legal. It isn’t legal to sell something to a criminal that they know probably would be used in a crime. The dealers are probably innocent. Though do they have a couple shady guys buying 20 p80s at each show and it’s the same 3 guys and they are asking suspicious as hell questions?

Unless the ATF or AACO police tell us, we don’t know why they are investigating the dealers. Might be total BS. Might be completely legitimate.

We do know my they are going about it in a BS way.

I was responding to when am I going to be concerned. I am not personally concerned until they start investigating and using these tactics against regular large retailers, staking out gun ranges and accosting owners, asking to search purchaser’s houses or getting warrants. That’s the sort of thing that I’ll be truly alarmed over.

Until then, it’s the ATF being some overbearing dicks. They might have decent reasons for pursuing whatever investigation they are. They aren’t going about it the right way. But I am not personal concerned over it. Personal concern would be me worried the ATF or police will start harassing me, getting warrants to search my home, demanding to do site visits (I have an FFL-03) to search all my firearms. Things that waste my time or they seem like they are fishing to fabricate something out of whole cloth or trying civil forfeitures against my property.

On the gun show dealer called large national retailer, the reason one would generate concern for me vs the other is because one I can wrap my head around the ATF being overzealous and pursuing a possibly legitimate criminal investigation. The other one feels like they are trying to figure out how to shut down all 80% sales or go after 80% end purchasers.

We’ve had a couple news stories in the last few months of guys getting busted after buying large numbers of 80s at gun shows and low and behold, they are criminals. So that seems to say ATF and AACO might be going about a legitimate investigation the wrong way.

I can be upset with something, without being personally concerned.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Since it was asked :

Possession of hunk of polymer or alloy by Anyone is both legal and unobjectionable .

Buying / selling / giving hunks of polymer or alloy by or to anyone is both legal and unobjectionable .

Changing a hunk of polymer or alloy into a firearm ( or 81% of a firearm) With Intent to Sell requires licensing as a Firearms Manufacturer , and all relevant rules and procedures apply .

Any such firearm sold/ given/ etc to Prohibited Person is a further violation , in addition to the above .

If a Prohibited Person themselves creates a Firearm , that is a violation in itself .

The selling of inherently and presumptively legal items or services to persons who eventually use , cause to use , or facilitate the use of for illegal purposes ? Potential can of worms and angels on heads of pins situiation .

As one of our Legandary Activists frequently likes to say " Let's play Substitute the Noun , and see how that plays out " .

Let's hypothetically look at gas stations and drunk drivers , getaway drivers, arsonists,etc . , and statutes and case law on Conspiracy .

Joe Blow goes to corner gas station on Monday , buys a tank of gas in the usual manner , but on Friday night guzzles a 12 pack of beer with MD 20/20 chasers , and climbs behind the wheel . Did Corner Gas Station conspire with Joe Blow to commit Vehicular Manslaughter ?

If Joe Blow guzzles his 12 pack with MD 20/20 chaser , on his way home from the block party , stops at Corner Gas Station , walks inside to counter to pay for gas , but he is so s@@@faced he's staggering , falling down , and can hardly talk . Did Corner Gas Station commit Conspiracy to Vehicular Homicide ?

Joe Blow walks up to Corner Gas Station . He's holding a pre- scored wine bottle, with a rag tied around the bottle neck . Joe ask the Gas Station Mgr what grade of gasoline combined with which weight of motor oil , mixed in what percentage , would make the best Destructive Device aka Molotov Cocktail . Did Corner Gas Station conspire to commit Arson ?

The answers would be : Nope , probably not criminally but an interesting civil suit , and Yup .

 

[dblas]

I am not okay with harassment. However, if it turns out they traced a large number of the 80s that are getting turned in to guns in the hands of criminals to the dealers they were asking for searches then it probably make sense to look closer.

I am not okay with the ATF’s behavior in this case demanding to seize property and only backing off when it is clear the person they are dealing with will lawyer up. Threatening a warrant unless the person does what they want anyway.

Wouldn’t you want to figure out the how and why of criminals getting guns. Are they stealing them themselves? Is someone stealing most of them and providing them. Is someone making all of them? Is there something about the dealers they are getting them from that makes it easier or more likely for the criminals to be getting them from those dealers.

An 80% is perfectly legal. It isn’t legal to sell something to a criminal that they know probably would be used in a crime. The dealers are probably innocent. Though do they have a couple shady guys buying 20 p80s at each show and it’s the same 3 guys and they are asking suspicious as hell questions?

Unless the ATF or AACO police tell us, we don’t know why they are investigating the dealers. Might be total BS. Might be completely legitimate.

We do know my they are going about it in a BS way.

I was responding to when am I going to be concerned. I am not personally concerned until they start investigating and using these tactics against regular large retailers, staking out gun ranges and accosting owners, asking to search purchaser’s houses or getting warrants. That’s the sort of thing that I’ll be truly alarmed over.

Until then, it’s the ATF being some overbearing dicks. They might have decent reasons for pursuing whatever investigation they are. They aren’t going about it the right way. But I am not personal concerned over it. Personal concern would be me worried the ATF or police will start harassing me, getting warrants to search my home, demanding to do site visits (I have an FFL-03) to search all my firearms. Things that waste my time or they seem like they are fishing to fabricate something out of whole cloth or trying civil forfeitures against my property.

On the gun show dealer called large national retailer, the reason one would generate concern for me vs the other is because one I can wrap my head around the ATF being overzealous and pursuing a possibly legitimate criminal investigation. The other one feels like they are trying to figure out how to shut down all 80% sales or go after 80% end purchasers.

We’ve had a couple news stories in the last few months of guys getting busted after buying large numbers of 80s at gun shows and low and behold, they are criminals. So that seems to say ATF and AACO might be going about a legitimate investigation the wrong way.

I can be upset with something, without being personally concerned.

Thanks for the clarification on your stance.

 

[Mr.Culper]

Instead of banning 3-400 items that repeat felons keep ending up with,, why not just ban "Felons" ???

Sure but if police are routinely finding them in the hands of criminals, why wouldn’t you try to figure out how they are getting them and putting a stop to it?

If it’s completely legal, not much you can do. If someone is doing something illegal along the way, go after them.

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Instead of banning 3-400 items that repeat felons keep ending up with,, why not just ban "Felons" ???

Hmmmm. I’m guessing you’re not getting the big picture. NO OFFENSE INTENDED

That’s NOT the way the legal/jurisprudence system/marketplace works.

 

[Matlack]

Is this a case of felons gonna felon?

 

[CrabbyTurtle]

Sad, I had to find out this news from Lead Therapy. (I didn't realize crumpy had already spoken about it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJiOSpApMnw&t=3s

 

[Towsonite]

Changing a hunk of polymer or alloy into a firearm ( or 81% of a firearm) With Intent to Sell requires licensing as a Firearms Manufacturer , and all relevant rules and procedures apply .

This was the part that always makes me think there are likely some "guys around the corner" already committing the highly punishable federal crime of manufacturing with intent to sell that are helping with putting these things together and selling in that market. The average 18-year old drug dealer isn't exactly someone with either the knowledge or the tools to build one. I know some very experienced craftsman/firearms guys who hesitated in building one at least the first time worrying about making sure they get the specs correct. Of course, drug dealers are generally okay with living with crappy, duck-taped guns that only fire every third time you pull the trigger, so who knows. See Lorcin L9MM.

 

[Bohemian]

IF you get a visit, CALL ...
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/hotline

Firearms Policy Coalition is requesting owners of such kits or a similar product by another brand who are contacted by law enforcement or federal regulators to reach out to the organization's toll-free Legal Action Hotline.
https://www.guns.com/news/2020/12/14/80-percent-kits-under-fire-atf-vs-polymer-80

 

[AlbertJConifer]

They should have released Detective EE Schwartz contact information, that away more journalists could try and get a statement from them.