Armed Teachers

[slsc98]

From the article and I wasn’t aware …

“There are at least 29 states that allow school staffers other than police or security officials, and an estimated 2.6% of public schools as of 2018, according to the Times.

That figure will continue to grow, as do the calls to protect our 54 million schoolchildren in the 130,000 American schools.”

The article:

Ohio Gun Training Course Arms Kindergarten Teachers in 26 Hours​

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/teacher-school-shootings/2022/07/31/id/1081105/

 

[willtill]

Did not read the attachment, but I fully support the concept of armed teachers in schools.

It's a no brainer. Seriously. Stop that wolf immediately, at the school/classroom door.

 

[Jake4now]

Did not read the attachment, but I fully support the concept of armed teachers in schools.

We wont even arm the school police here. Madness.

 

[smileycloser]

From the article and I wasn’t aware …

“There are at least 29 states that allow school staffers other than police or security officials, and an estimated 2.6% of public schools as of 2018, according to the Times.

That figure will continue to grow, as do the calls to protect our 54 million schoolchildren in the 130,000 American schools.”

The article:

Ohio Gun Training Course Arms Kindergarten Teachers in 26 Hours​

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/teacher-school-shootings/2022/07/31/id/1081105/

What’s the point of this thread?

 

[willtill]

We wont even arm the school police here. Madness.

I know. It is madness. It hurts the mind even to think about how stupid that is. Those people who make those policies do so from the comfort of a safe place. They don't put themselves in the shoes of kids facing a gun in those classrooms.

I don't even have kids but I can fathom a parent's anguish... I mean, who could fault a parent's rage whose child was killed by someone in there school, when it could have been stopped by someone armed in the immediate vicinity?

It's just so insane as you have said. I cant believe that the silent majority of people in your school district have signed up with that type of response to a deadly threat. Not you of course. But the rest of the parents who don't organize and change the response to a armed threat to their kids in those schools.

 

[ToneGrail]

We wont even arm the school police here. Madness.

The SRO's here are full-time sworn armed BCoPD officers. Where are you talking about?

 

[LCPIWB]

The SRO's here are full-time sworn armed BCoPD officers. Where are you talking about?

He could be thinking of Baltimore City which decided to disarm their SROs.

 

[lazarus]

I know. It is madness. It hurts the mind even to think about how stupid that is. Those people who make those policies do so from the comfort of a safe place. They don't put themselves in the shoes of kids facing a gun in those classrooms.

I don't even have kids but I can fathom a parent's anguish... I mean, who could fault a parent's rage whose child was killed by someone in there school, when it could have been stopped by someone armed in the immediate vicinity?

It's just so insane as you have said. I cant believe that the silent majority of people in your school district have signed up with that type of response to a deadly threat. Not you of course. But the rest of the parents who don't organize and change the response to a armed threat to their kids in those schools.

I support teachers being armed at their choice. But it is one of the few times I do think training should be mandatory first, and not some 4hr sleep through it class equivalent to what we have to do for an HQL.

In the setting they are in, if they do need to deploy lethal force consequences are extremely high. No I don’t think it needs to be some SWAT or SO training, but legit deescalation, safety, and proficiency training and a fair amount of actual live fire (no sim) training with a minimum proficiency required. Probably the sort of thing you could handle in 16-24hrs and a few hundred rounds (IMHO the maryland proficiency requirements for a security guard are probably fairly reasonable standard too).

I would not want some teacher with no training at all accidentally shooting a student or staff member because they really don’t have a business carrying, but hey, freedom so let them.

I do believe the state/school district should pay for this training 100% (including ammo).

 

[Jake4now]

The SRO's here are full-time sworn armed BCoPD officers. Where are you talking about?

City

 

[E.Shell]

"de-escalation" in a classroom? No. Someone comes in shooting or even threatening to shoot, it's time to take it to the top and then some.

 

[motorcoachdoug]

If a teacher is going to be armed in the classroom then I would like them to get the state of maryland required firearms training for peace officers and qualify with that weapon the same way peace officers do.

 

[KRC]

I recently retired after 14 years teaching in a public high school. I am a "gun guy", but I believe arming teachers is a very poor idea. (My opinion only - I will not debate.) The way this would likely be implemented is a stipend would be paid to "carry" teachers. Those teachers who probably should not have guns but want a few extra bucks will rush to apply, will have minimal training, probably no psych evaluation, and are likely to make poor decisions in every aspect of firearms use. As well as the potential threat due to firearms storage in the classroom. (If you think these will be 100% secure you do not know anything about school classrooms and what goes on.)

That said, I kept a powerful slingshot and ball bearings, a fresh can of 25 ft. wasp spray, and two half gallon bottles of dish detergent (one near each hallway door) in my classroom at all times. I also had a mechanism to prevent the doors of my classroom from being opened. A better plan than arming teachers is to follow the best mandatory training the school ever required of teachers:

RUN . . . HIDE . . . FIGHT In that order.

Fight is dead last. I had three different escape routes planned for my students, and one barricaded area. Note that during training we were told that law enforcement would literally step over bleeding victims to achieve their primary objective: neutralize the threat. These are the professionals trained in firearms use and threat neutralization. This is why the Uvalde police response was so terrifying to teachers.

BTW, the other "gun guy" teacher in our school held the same opinion. And again, this is just my view based on decades of gun ownership and use, 14 years in a public school classroom and the school environment, and a sound knowledge of human nature.

 

[Norton]

I recently retired after 14 years teaching in a public high school. I am a "gun guy", but I believe arming teachers is a very poor idea. (My opinion only - I will not debate.) The way this would likely be implemented is a stipend would be paid to "carry" teachers. Those teachers who probably should not have guns but want a few extra bucks will rush to apply, will have minimal training, probably no psych evaluation, and are likely to make poor decisions in every aspect of firearms use. As well as the potential threat due to firearms storage in the classroom. (If you think these will be 100% secure you do not know anything about school classrooms and what goes on.)

That said, I kept a powerful slingshot and ball bearings, a fresh can of 25 ft. wasp spray, and two half gallon bottles of dish detergent (one near each hallway door) in my classroom at all times. I also had a mechanism to prevent the doors of my classroom from being opened. A better plan than arming teachers is to follow the best mandatory training the school ever required of teachers:

RUN . . . HIDE . . . FIGHT In that order.

Fight is dead last. I had three different escape routes planned for my students, and one barricaded area. Note that during training we were told that law enforcement would literally step over bleeding victims to achieve their primary objective: neutralize the threat. These are the professionals trained in firearms use and threat neutralization. This is why the Uvalde police response was so terrifying to teachers.

BTW, the other "gun guy" teacher in our school held the same opinion. And again, this is just my view based on decades of gun ownership and use, 14 years in a public school classroom and the school environment, and a sound knowledge of human nature.

I've been in the classroom for 30+ years and couldn't disagree any more vehemently.

Wasp spray?

 

[smokey]

I recently retired after 14 years teaching in a public high school. I am a "gun guy", but I believe arming teachers is a very poor idea. (My opinion only - I will not debate.) The way this would likely be implemented is a stipend would be paid to "carry" teachers. Those teachers who probably should not have guns but want a few extra bucks will rush to apply, will have minimal training, probably no psych evaluation, and are likely to make poor decisions in every aspect of firearms use. As well as the potential threat due to firearms storage in the classroom. (If you think these will be 100% secure you do not know anything about school classrooms and what goes on.)

That said, I kept a powerful slingshot and ball bearings, a fresh can of 25 ft. wasp spray, and two half gallon bottles of dish detergent (one near each hallway door) in my classroom at all times. I also had a mechanism to prevent the doors of my classroom from being opened. A better plan than arming teachers is to follow the best mandatory training the school ever required of teachers:

RUN . . . HIDE . . . FIGHT In that order.

Fight is dead last. I had three different escape routes planned for my students, and one barricaded area. Note that during training we were told that law enforcement would literally step over bleeding victims to achieve their primary objective: neutralize the threat. These are the professionals trained in firearms use and threat neutralization. This is why the Uvalde police response was so terrifying to teachers.

BTW, the other "gun guy" teacher in our school held the same opinion. And again, this is just my view based on decades of gun ownership and use, 14 years in a public school classroom and the school environment, and a sound knowledge of human nature.

Teacher carry is already a thing in over half the states in our republic and has been for years. Stipends aren't required or prudent, just remove infringements and give teachers a legal pathway to carry. Those that are serious about defending their kids will take advantage of this. Your assumptions about the kind of people that WOULD choose this are your assumptions and nothing else.

Firearm storage? The gun would be physically carried and concealed on the teacher's body, not stored somewhere.

Like Norton, I also disagree about as much as can be disagreed. I'm going in to my 16th year teaching.

 

[Blaster229]

If a teacher is going to be armed in the classroom then I would like them to get the state of maryland required firearms training for peace officers and qualify with that weapon the same way peace officers do.

Guess you really don't know how little that is. They don't have to train a qual course. I could train them just what they need for inside a classroom.

I want them to get some training with people who have a wee bit more gun experience than they do. The stuff in these situations need to be taught with some serious passion. A mindset and enthusiasm that connects the person to the pistol inside that environment.
And that is just not in cop training unfortunately. It goes way beyond "here's how to press a trigger".

I will say teachers have that "passion" jump ahead of cops. It's personal with their students(children). They bond with these same kids everyday for years. Cops don't have that "mama bear" attitude for the general public.

 

[motorcoachdoug]

I stand corrected sir and defer to your knowledge. What would you suggest for teachers who want to carry in the classroom? I totally agree they will bring the mama bear attitude if anyone wants to harm "their"children while at school and stop anyone who is threatening their children.

 

[lazarus]

"de-escalation" in a classroom? No. Someone comes in shooting or even threatening to shoot, it's time to take it to the top and then some.

Yes, if they have a gun. You think there won't be a teacher at some point who decides to pull a gun because a kid takes a swing?

De-escalation training is still critically important. Yes, the response to a shooter/mass shooter is stop them ASAP. However, with access to a firearm...sometimes everything is a nail when you have a hammer to some people.

 

[E.Shell]

Yes, if they have a gun. You think there won't be a teacher at some point who decides to pull a gun because a kid takes a swing?

I cannot assume a teacher will or will not present a firearm and possibly shoot a student executing an unarmed attack. I would expect them to act responsibly and meet force with force to defend themselves, exactly like any of the rest of us are required to do.

If they perceive circumstances as a life-threatening situation, they will be expected to respond as necessary. Some of these "kids" are 6 feet tall and weight 180 pounds and to think they cannot be a real threat is folly. Calling them 'kids' doesn't provide a pass for dangerously violent behavior.

De-escalation training is still critically important. Yes, the response to a shooter/mass shooter is stop them ASAP. However, with access to a firearm...sometimes everything is a nail when you have a hammer to some people.

In your scenario of de-escalating violence by an unarmed student, I agree that training should exist, and should ALREADY exist.
I would suggest treating teachers as responsible adults and not project behaviors in order to limit their ability to respond to a 'school shooter' incident.

 

[Blaster229]

I stand corrected sir and defer to your knowledge. What would you suggest for teachers who want to carry in the classroom? I totally agree they will bring the mama bear attitude if anyone wants to harm "their"children while at school and stop anyone who is threatening their children.

Well, I certainly cannot get into all of it here. But the shooting portion certainly doesn't involve 25 and 15 yard shots.
Suffice it to say this. A teacher needs to act like an active shooter who has barricaded in a classroom.
An active shooter will usually be alone and it's MUCH easier to get 1 person coming through that door(in the fatal funnel)than a team of 2,4,6(even regular officers).
Also doors. I'm spitballing here....Is it 1, center fed door? Or 1 or 2, corner fed doors? Herd all the kids on the hinge side(behind the door) when it opens and you be ready to take that shot when he comes through.
Honestly, I'd prefer the door to be unlocked so I could end it right there. But that's me. It's not hard. Too many variables to type here. like I said, it's championing the passion and confidence for a teacher to take the shot when/if it happens.

 

[HaveBlue]

We can all rationally imagine what could go wrong. But how often do armed civilians accidentally hit a bystander or how often are armed civilians injured because they were mistaken for the bad guy/gal? It's easy to imagine it like friendly fire in a ware zone. But how often does it happen to civilians? I think it's actually very very rare, else the media would be harping on it over and over again.

I agree with Blaster and have personal tactical simunitions experience that says he is 1000% correct. Even 16 hours of training isn't needed to dominate a fatal funnel at the classroom door.

A shooter in the cafeteria is more like what an Air Marshal would train for. Where 240 hours and thousands of rounds would only be enough if they started with the right candidate. This isn't the sort of situation schools are prepared for today either. And Teachers shouldn't be leaving the kids start "clearing rooms".

However, let's focus on eliminating the simple scenarios and force the shooters to plan for opposition, pick a non-school target or be abruptly stopped.

Let's try arming teachers with as few road blocks as possible!