AR15 lower > .300 BLK

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • subman

    Junior Member
    Aug 17, 2015
    71
    You don’t
    I’ve backed up my statements with two conversations today with the ATF. Both without hesitation said it’s a lower and the owner can build it , disassemble it and build it again going from rifle to pistol etc… I encourage you to do the same and talk with the ATF as no one else so far has seemed to do. If you get a different answer than I received I would greatly appreciate the name and number so I can put them in touch with my agents and let them hash this out.
    Thanks and good luck.

    Thank you.
     

    jcutonilli

    Active Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,142
    Once a rifle always a rifle unless you SBR it and pay the tax.

    The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)” (emphasis added).

    United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA
    5 Pins is Right .

    RRomig is discussing the likelihood of getting caught .

    This is not correct, if it were, T/C would have been decided differently. There seems to be no argument as to whether the T/C firearm could be converted back and forth between a handgun and rifle. The only issue in the case was whether an NFA firearm was created because it could be assembled into an NFA firearm. The conclusion was that it was not an NFA firearm.

    Additionally T/C never cited 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4) in the opinion or syllabus. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/505/

    From https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-rifle-pistol-without-registering-firearm The ATF talks about a "firearm that was originally a rifle", but the firearm in this thread is not originally a rifle, it is a lower.
     

    jcutonilli

    Active Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,142
    Correct, I purchased a stripped lower.. and had to wait 7 day jail time to take possession (using my HQL)..just as if I were buying a handgun. I specifically purchased a lower (vice buying an AR rifle) so that I could have the flexibility but then I read on these forums that if I made it into a rifle first I lose that flexibility.
    You do not need an HQL to purchase a stripped lower

    The 7 day jail time is because the FFL chose to consider it a regulated firearm
     

    5pins

    Junior Member
    Mar 23, 2014
    36
    Charles Town WV
    This is not correct, if it were, T/C would have been decided differently. There seems to be no argument as to whether the T/C firearm could be converted back and forth between a handgun and rifle. The only issue in the case was whether an NFA firearm was created because it could be assembled into an NFA firearm. The conclusion was that it was not an NFA firearm.

    Additionally T/C never cited 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4) in the opinion or syllabus. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/505/

    From https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-rifle-pistol-without-registering-firearm The ATF talks about a "firearm that was originally a rifle", but the firearm in this thread is not originally a rifle, it is a lower.
    When he "originally assembled" the lower into a rifle, it became a rifle.
     

    scottyfz6

    Member
    Dec 22, 2018
    478
    Where can you buy a stripped lower without an HQL?
    any gun store that sells them. You do need to sign up on the msp website but you can buy a stripped lower with out a hql. Then the fun part you can use the purchase of the lower as a training exemption as you owned a "regulated" firearm.
     

    jcutonilli

    Active Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,142
    When he "originally assembled" the lower into a rifle, it became a rifle.
    Lowers generally don't need to be assembled. They are considered firearms in and of themselves (unless you are referring to 80%s) see 18 USC 921(a)(3)(B). Since you are modifying the firearm into a rifle it is no longer in its original configuration.

    I also do not know what you are quoting when you say "originally assembled" as that term is not found in 26 USC 5845 or T/C (504 US 505) or the referenced ATF answer.
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    12,538
    Call the ATF see what their records say the lower is.... :innocent0

    Technically before he put the stock on the buffer tube it was a pistol :innocent0
    ;)
     

    RRomig

    Member
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 30, 2021
    876
    Burtonsville MD
    Call the ATF see what their records say the lower is.... :innocent0

    Technically before he put the stock on the buffer tube it was a pistol :innocent0
    ;)
    It’s not a pistol it’s other and receiver but it can also be a frame. That’s the ongoing discussion within the ATF
     

    5pins

    Junior Member
    Mar 23, 2014
    36
    Charles Town WV
    Lowers generally don't need to be assembled. They are considered firearms in and of themselves (unless you are referring to 80%s) see 18 USC 921(a)(3)(B). Since you are modifying the firearm into a rifle it is no longer in its original configuration.

    I also do not know what you are quoting when you say "originally assembled" as that term is not found in 26 USC 5845 or T/C (504 US 505) or the referenced ATF answer.
    See post #8 and #19
     

    jcutonilli

    Active Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,142
    See post #8 and #19
    United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA

    It has nothing to do with registration. If it was assembled into a rifle the first time, it is a rifle.

    The quote I gave above is from the Thompson case handed down by the court, not the ATF.

    United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA
    What you claim as a quote from T/C (504 US 505) does not appear in the referenced document
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    12,538
    All this confusion over a non-binary receiver....
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    261,392
    Messages
    6,663,843
    Members
    30,470
    Latest member
    slick mick

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom