4.4 miles

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  • Waingro

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2018
    585
    Join us sometime at Peacemaker Frontier Day- shooting to ~1100yds. Lots of folks far more knowledgeable than I to give advice.
    If you have a flat shooting rifle and decent scope, you'll have a blast. My first trip out I had a TC Compass in 6.5CM with a bipod and a 3-9x40 Vortex scope (<$500 all in) and was hitting a pizza box size steel target at 1000yds.
    That sounds like a blast. Literally =). Long range shooting always interested me but not having a place to really try it limits you so to speak. I'll definitely keep that invite in mind. Thanks brother
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    I am by no means an expert, but like to tinker with long distance shooting. I can tell you that at 1000yds, a deviation of just 20fps between rounds has a significant (>10") difference in where the bullet hits the target. At 4+ miles, it is a crap shoot at best.
    I stated above that: E.Shell, BrowningGuy and 4g64loser could chime in with professional insight. 4g64loser replied and I think he confirmed my skepticism of hitting a target once that far away.
    Hopefully 4g64loser or one of the other pros can elaborate.
    SG, by the numbers you are correct in your crapshoot assessment on an 8" plate. The majority of shooters cannot one-shot that plate at 1000yd.

    The vertical dispersion issue is not simply a velocity problem but that's definitely a component. An example would be mk262: a 20fps ES translates to about 7" of vertical at 1000. Another one, m118lr: a 20fps ES translates to about 8" of vertical at 1000. My 3006 load, which was last tested at an average of 2735, 18ES, 7.3SD in april, translates to about a 5" vertical at 1000 in theory (I plugged in a 20es to keep it fair).

    Based on these examples, calculated at 1000yd, one would need to make an absolutely perfect windage correction to hit a round 8" plate on the first shot because the vertical dispersion requires more than half (my 3006) or all (mk262 and m118lr) of the plates height. The plate is only that tall in the center. How many people can make that wind call? How many handloaders (or factory loads) can CONSISTENTLY hold an ES of 20 or lower?

    Then we come to mechanical precision issues. The above calcs assume perfect mechanics. Even my 6br, which is one of my favorite rifles in a favorite chambering, can't be relied on to produce a .1 moa group when shot from bag and bipod. .2 to .3 moa is very doable and once or twice (again, this is the exception!) It has edged into that .20something range. Add this rifle/shooter error to the above velocity issues and then extrapolate that out.

    I can get into even more issues (like the reticle subtending a larger space in your vision than the target) but I think we can pretty much put this in the NO category when answering SGs question about doing the 8" plate at 4.4 miles with one shot.
     

    Waingro

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2018
    585
    So at 4+ miles away how many "adjustment shots" do you think one would need to hit that target?
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    So at 4+ miles away how many "adjustment shots" do you think one would need to hit that target?
    Not very specific. With a 408, 416, or other purpose built ELR rig and the very best optics/support equipment? An 8" target is still a joke. Assuming no wind and a rifle capable of world class benchrest precision (neither of which is likely based on ELR matches I've seen), the reticle would still subtend a larger area in your field of view than the plate target. It's a trick shot even before considering mechanical and environmental factors.

    Now, give my buddy and his 120mm howitzer a shot and he'd probably frag the plate in one or two rounds (area weapon used on a point target, very effective).

    Waingro, you should take SG up on his invite. There's a lot of perspective to be gained by seeing what happens in the real world between bang and clang.
     

    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    I am with the crowd that says 1 of 69 shots sounds random to me. Its not repeatable. Shoot a gun 69 times, its going to hit the target eventually.
     

    Waingro

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2018
    585
    Not very specific. With a 408, 416, or other purpose built ELR rig and the very best optics/support equipment? An 8" target is still a joke. Assuming no wind and a rifle capable of world class benchrest precision (neither of which is likely based on ELR matches I've seen), the reticle would still subtend a larger area in your field of view than the plate target. It's a trick shot even before considering mechanical and environmental factors.

    Now, give my buddy and his 120mm howitzer a shot and he'd probably frag the plate in one or two rounds (area weapon used on a point target, very effective).

    Waingro, you should take SG up on his invite. There's a lot of perspective to be gained by seeing what happens in the real world between bang and clang.
    Sorry. Again way out of my wheel house. I guess what I was getting at was where one starts to shoot that far and the trial/error of it. It's truly a science for sure
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    Sorry. Again way out of my wheel house. I guess what I was getting at was where one starts to shoot that far and the trial/error of it. It's truly a science for sure
    Don't be sorry. Hard to specifically answer a nonspecific question, that's all. As one of my friends says, "you don't know what you don't know until you realize that you didn't know it."

    The finer points of extreme precision can be pretty esoteric. In short, I will answer by saying that a lot goes into how much you can trust a specific rounds impact to correct off of. I see people "correct" off of a single shot and miss all day as they keep making "corrections" based on the previous shot. Their problem is that every shot they fire is not repeatable. Everyone wants to hit 1000yds but I try to get those that are seriously interested in the game to do all the foundation work first; this usually means that they will spend a day or two working at 100. Once they and their weapon are fitted together and the ammo is suitable, it is not hard to drop lead on a full IPSC at 1000.
     

    Jimgoespewpew

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 6, 2021
    2,038
    Terlingua
    Join us sometime at Peacemaker Frontier Day- shooting to ~1100yds. Lots of folks far more knowledgeable than I to give advice.
    If you have a flat shooting rifle and decent scope, you'll have a blast. My first trip out I had a TC Compass in 6.5CM with a bipod and a 3-9x40 Vortex scope (<$500 all in) and was hitting a pizza box size steel target at 1000yds.
    I'd love to join if possible. Sounds awesome
     
    May 21, 2017
    2,875
    Gaithersburg, MD
    So at 4+ miles away how many "adjustment shots" do you think one would need to hit that target?
    Apparently, 68. :D
    I did the Intro to LR Shooting class at Peacemaker and was able to hit the pizza box from 994 yards with a Barrett 98B in .308. Definitely a fun day but watching the .308 round arcing down over a 994 yard flight was mind boggling to see.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    At that distance, they were surely subsonic, making the shot DOPE non-repeatable.
    Clarification: ELR guys deal with their bullets going subsonic all the time, and you can get repeatable results out of them. That is why said ELR shooters pay $800 for Kestrel Elites that have Litz's fancy curves and models built into them.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    Clarification: ELR guys deal with their bullets going subsonic all the time, and you can get repeatable results out of them. That is why said ELR shooters pay $800 for Kestrel Elites that have Litz's fancy curves and models built into them.
    Yes, sort of. Some bullets progress through the transonic range in a more predictable fashion than others. Massive amounts of research has been dumped into this area. The people at LRBT and warner tool being primary examples. Once the bullet is subsonic, it is much more predictable. The trouble is in the transition from super to sub and how the bullet behaves there.

    It has been my experience that any given drag model is an approximation. They require some tweaking. Students ask why their data is off with solid chrono data from two chronos and I usually start by computing three targets at different ranges using g1, g7 and custom curve (if available for that bullet). People sometimes resist and say that custom curve must be the most accurate. My response is to trust the observed results in YOUR rifle.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Yes, sort of. Some bullets progress through the transonic range in a more predictable fashion than others. Massive amounts of research has been dumped into this area. The people at LRBT and warner tool being primary examples. Once the bullet is subsonic, it is much more predictable. The trouble is in the transition from super to sub and how the bullet behaves there.
    Correct. Saw it first hand when I shot 168gr SMKs at 1200yds.

    It has been my experience that any given drag model is an approximation. They require some tweaking. Students ask why their data is off with solid chrono data from two chronos and I usually start by computing three targets at different ranges using g1, g7 and custom curve (if available for that bullet). People sometimes resist and say that custom curve must be the most accurate. My response is to trust the observed results in YOUR rifle.
    Totally agree. This is why you true your BC using the functionality in your Kestrel or other BC. It is probably the least obvious bit of the whole exercise to newer shooters who want to go to extended ranges.
     

    DirtyHarry45

    Active Member
    Jun 8, 2013
    111
    Hats off to those poor spotters hunkering down a few feet away from the target while some guy shoots in their direction
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    Correct. Saw it first hand when I shot 168gr SMKs at 1200yds.


    Totally agree. This is why you true your BC using the functionality in your Kestrel or other BC. It is probably the least obvious bit of the whole exercise to newer shooters who want to go to extended ranges.
    Not to crap on you, but to advise those who don't know (as you do from experience) that the 168 was designed to take the m14 to 600m. It does that. In spades. Shortly after that, it totally $hits the bed. They not only have the "nose up" issue (yaw), they destabilize and begin to tumble badly. Being in the pits at a high power match, it was obvious who was used to shooting on reduced targets at shorter ranges.....you heard their rounds whistling in the air and often not hitting the paper.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Not to crap on you, but to advise those who don't know (as you do from experience) that the 168 was designed to take the m14 to 600m. It does that. In spades. Shortly after that, it totally $hits the bed. They not only have the "nose up" issue (yaw), they destabilize and begin to tumble badly. Being in the pits at a high power match, it was obvious who was used to shooting on reduced targets at shorter ranges.....you heard their rounds whistling in the air and often not hitting the paper.
    Yes, this was the point I was making, but inadequately expressed. The 168gr is terrible for shooting past supersonic velocity. The 175gr bullets corrected that problem. I believe the 169gr SMK is their new offering to replace the 168gr SMKs (finally).
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    Yes, this was the point I was making, but inadequately expressed. The 168gr is terrible for shooting past supersonic velocity. The 175gr bullets corrected that problem. I believe the 169gr SMK is their new offering to replace the 168gr SMKs (finally).
    The 175 does it better but it's still likely to nose up. Seen a third round hit at a.mile on a larue man gong using it out of an 18" gasgun (shooter is a merc I know). His partners 338 ultra improved did it on the first shot. But the 338 was rolling LRBT projectiles and has a lot more powder.

    No data on the 169, or even 168tmk, personally. I think the midweight 30 cals make good all around hunting bullets at conventional ranges but for target use I see no reason not to go lighter and faster (155 Palma or hybrid have higher bc than 168) or heavier and slower (175-190 range). I sling 155 palmas and they do reasonably well. Did the mile at thunder valley with that load. If I was regularly shooting a 308 at a mile I would first have my head examined (I love 308 but it's the wrong tool for the job) and then I would switch from 155s to berger 185s.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    If anyone is interested in this topic, Litz's books are the reference, and I strongly recommend them for every serious shooter.

    The 175 does it better but it's still likely to nose up. Seen a third round hit at a.mile on a larue man gong using it out of an 18" gasgun (shooter is a merc I know). His partners 338 ultra improved did it on the first shot. But the 338 was rolling LRBT projectiles and has a lot more powder.
    The 168s were infamous for their transonic performance, which is why I used them as an example. The 175s don't have that problem. It was amazing watching the 168s perform amazing all the way to 800 and then go all over the place when they went subsonic... really drove home all of that stuff Litz and others were saying about them.

    I don't really shoot ELR anymore - it was a lot of gear for something I did quite infrequently - but I did have a good time whenever I had the opportunity up at PNTC's frontier range, and probably would still see how far I could take my 6.5 Grendel bolt gun or 308 gas gun.
     

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