AR HBAR Question

If I purchase a HBAR AR-15 and then at a later point put a different upper on the lower would I be violating any laws?

If you're under 21 when putting a non-HBAR upper on it, I believe the answer is yes. If you've over 21, it doesn't matter.

I would think that if you put a different upper on a HBAR then you would be breaking the law. Then it wouldn't be an HBAR which would make a non regulated firearm a regulated firearm in this state. I could be wrong.

05dodgedaytona said:

I would think that if you put a different upper on a HBAR then you would be breaking the law. Then it wouldn't be an HBAR which would make a non regulated firearm a regulated firearm in this state. I could be wrong.

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What he said.

05dodgedaytona said:

I would think that if you put a different upper on a HBAR then you would be breaking the law. Then it wouldn't be an HBAR which would make a non regulated firearm a regulated firearm in this state. I could be wrong.

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Yes, it would be a regulated firearm, but you would NOT be breaking the law.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits the owner of a non-regulated firearm from making a regulated firearm from it.

Possession of a regulated rifle is no different than any other rifle with the exception of the provision that you must be 21 or older.

Mark

I believe it would only be illegal if you then tried to sell it as an HBAR after putting the non-HBAR upper on it.

Markp said:

Yes, it would be a regulated firearm, but you would NOT be breaking the law.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits the owner of a non-regulated firearm from making a regulated firearm from it.

Possession of a regulated rifle is no different than any other rifle with the exception of the provision that you must be 21 or older.

Mark

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This. Its like putting a folding stock on a mini14 that originally came with a fixed stock

As far as I know the HBAR exception has nothing to do with the upper. The lower has a block in it that will not allow a drop in auto sear to drop in. Full auto parts will not work in the lower receiver. I know some gun shops sell anything labeled as an HBAR as cash and carry but only the Colt HBAR is exempted in Maryland law. The three evil feature rule does not exist under Maryland law. The only rifles Maryland considers assault rifles are listed specifically. Putting a new upper on it does not change the receiver, just like putting a heavy barrel on a Smith lower does not make it a cash and carry weapon.

goneshootin88 said:

This. Its like putting a folding stock on a mini14 that originally came with a fixed stock

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Except the Mini with a folding stock is specifically listed. Adding a folding stock makes it on the list. The Colt HBAR is specifically exempted. Not AR15's with a heavy barrel but a specific rifle.

1time said:

As far as I know the HBAR exception has nothing to do with the upper. The lower has a block in it that will not allow a drop in auto sear to drop in. Full auto parts will not work in the lower receiver. I know some gun shops sell anything labeled as an HBAR as cash and carry but only the Colt HBAR is exempted in Maryland law. The three evil feature rule does not exist under Maryland law. The only rifles Maryland considers assault rifles are listed specifically. Putting a new upper on it does not change the receiver, just like putting a heavy barrel on a Smith lower does not make it a cash and carry weapon.

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Wrong.

It has nothing to do with Colt's (stupid, big brother, nanny-state, sellout) sear block. It has everything to do with barrel profile. The same Colt rifle with sear block but with a Govt profile or M4 profile barrel is considered regulated.

Any AR platform rifle with a heavy barrel profile is considered an HBAR, regardless of whether it has a prancing pony on the magwell.


The law mentions "Colt HBAR", but also mention that "copies" of regulated weapons NOT listed, but being copies of them, are also regulated.

Therefore, copies of Colt HBAR's are UNregulated, by extension, just as copies of regulated firearms are also regulated.

The State cannot have it both ways.

If "X", and copies of "X" are regulated, and "Y" is unregulated, then copies of "Y" also MUST be unregulated.

mudskipper said:

Wrong.

It has nothing to do with Colt's (stupid, big brother, nanny-state, sellout) sear block. How do you know what they intended when they wrote the stupid law? You don't think the sear block wasn't a big part of the reason the HBAR got off of the list? Colt had to do it for a reason. It has everything to do with barrel profile. The same Colt rifle with sear block but with a Govt profile or M4 profile barrel is considered regulated. Do you have any documentation to back this up?

Any AR platform rifle with a heavy barrel profile is considered an HBAR, regardless of whether it has a prancing pony on the magwell.


The law mentions "Colt HBAR", but also mention that "copies" of regulated weapons NOT listed, but being copies of them, are also regulated.
It doesn't "mention", it clearly states except Colt HBAR. It doesn't state Like the Colt HBAR.

Therefore, copies of Colt HBAR's are UNregulated, by extension, just as copies of regulated firearms are also regulated.

The State cannot have it both ways. Sure it can, that's what it does best.

If "X", and copies of "X" are regulated, and "Y" is unregulated, then copies of "Y" also MUST be unregulated.

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I hope the courts see it your way if anyone is ever charged. The fact is HBAR is a model designation, not a description barrel profile. They are marked HBAR on the receiver. If Rock River had a model marked HBAR and had the sear block I could see where it would be a copy but that is not the case.

Unless you can back your argument that I'm wrong with case law, it is just conjecture either way. Until someone is charged and case law sets a precedence the law is definitely muddy. I don't know of any case but it is definitely possible I missed one.

I contend that idiots that come up with laws like this couldn't tell the difference between an AR15 and a SKS much less different barrel profiles for an AR. I fell pretty confident that having a receiver marked COLT HBAR will keep me out of the gray bar hotel regardless of what the barrel looks like.

1time said:

As far as I know the HBAR exception has nothing to do with the upper. The lower has a block in it that will not allow a drop in auto sear to drop in. Full auto parts will not work in the lower receiver. I know some gun shops sell anything labeled as an HBAR as cash and carry but only the Colt HBAR is exempted in Maryland law. The three evil feature rule does not exist under Maryland law. The only rifles Maryland considers assault rifles are listed specifically. Putting a new upper on it does not change the receiver, just like putting a heavy barrel on a Smith lower does not make it a cash and carry weapon.

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My Colt is marked HBAR and has no sear block.

buff7mm said:

My Colt is marked HBAR and has no sear block.

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I'm not saying yours has a sear block but the picture you have does not show where the sear block is located.

The receiver on the left is an HBAR and you can see the sear block by the red arrow. The receiver on the right has not block for comparison.

1time, do you REALLY think Colt changed their AR lower to satisfy MD's laws?

How do you know what they intended when they wrote the stupid law? You don't think the sear block wasn't a big part of the reason the HBAR got off of the list? Colt had to do it for a reason.

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Colt changed their AR's back around 1989, when did MD enact the regulated gun laws?

Bensmiata said:

If I purchase a HBAR AR-15 and then at a later point put a different upper on the lower would I be violating any laws?

Calengor said:

If you're under 21 when putting a non-HBAR upper on it, I believe the answer is yes. If you've over 21, it doesn't matter.

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This is the correct answer to the OPs original question.

05dodgedaytona said:

I would think that if you put a different upper on a HBAR then you would be breaking the law. Then it wouldn't be an HBAR which would make a non regulated firearm a regulated firearm in this state. I could be wrong.

Markp said:

Yes, it would be a regulated firearm, but you would NOT be breaking the law.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits the owner of a non-regulated firearm from making a regulated firearm from it.

Possession of a regulated rifle is no different than any other rifle with the exception of the provision that you must be 21 or older.

Mark

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MarkP is correct.

Integrity said:

I believe it would only be illegal if you then tried to sell it as an HBAR after putting the non-HBAR upper on it.

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There is some gray area here.

The law states that the Colt HBAR is exempt. Having "HBAR" on the receiver complies with the letter of the law, regardless of the barrel on the rifle at the moment.

Conversely, HBAR rifles by makers other than Colt are accepted by MSP as a copy of the Colt HBAR. Trademark/copyright law prevents other makers from marking the receiver "HBAR", but "HBAR" on the barrel is somehow OK.

IMO, best thing to do would be to sell it with a heavy barrel as an HBAR, or, leave the light barrel in place and treat it like a regulated firearm.

1time said:

As far as I know the HBAR exception has nothing to do with the upper. The lower has a block in it that will not allow a drop in auto sear to drop in. Full auto parts will not work in the lower receiver. I know some gun shops sell anything labeled as an HBAR as cash and carry but only the Colt HBAR is exempted in Maryland law. The three evil feature rule does not exist under Maryland law. The only rifles Maryland considers assault rifles are listed specifically. Putting a new upper on it does not change the receiver, just like putting a heavy barrel on a Smith lower does not make it a cash and carry weapon.

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Agree mostly.

The presence or absence of a sear block has nothing to do with the HBAR status. The sear block was in response to the '86 machine gun ban, and was Colt's effort to keep citizens honest by preventing the assembly with an auto sear. I have HBARs with and without sear blocks.

The law regarding this Colt HBAR issue is not clear. It clearly says that a copy of the Colt "assault rifle" (light barreled AR-15) is also regulated, whether it appears on the list or not.

By exactly the same logic, a copy of the Colt HBAR should also be exempted, and is actually treated as such by almost everyone. Surprisingly, even MSP seems to have accepted this logic and HBARs from any manufacturer are freely traded as unregulated cash and carry by any dealer familiar with the issues and concerned with treating their clientele fairly. Why should I have to wait 8 days, submit to MSP "not disapproved", fill out additional forms and pay extra if the law doesn't require it? Because the dealer won't bother to find out?

1time said:

I hope the courts see it your way if anyone is ever charged. The fact is HBAR is a model designation, not a description barrel profile. They are marked HBAR on the receiver. If Rock River had a model marked HBAR and had the sear block I could see where it would be a copy but that is not the case.

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Yes, it IS a model designation, but, that model is defined by certain traits and it was exempted because the popular belief was that a heavy barreled AR-15, like the HBAR, is a target gun and not an "assault rifle". That these traits are carried by clones that are considered copies for the purpose of regulating non-HBARs, it would follow that the same traits that exempt the HBAR would also exempt clones.

Try to forget the sear block thing, it relates to the 1986 ban on manufacture of new machine guns and really has nothing to do with this, and again, I have HBAR Colts with & without sear blocks and both are specifically exempted in MD law.

Unless you can back your argument that I'm wrong with case law, it is just conjecture either way. Until someone is charged and case law sets a precedence the law is definitely muddy. I don't know of any case but it is definitely possible I missed one.

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I believe you're correct about no case law, but rest assured that HBARs (heavy barrel Colt clones) from other manufacturers are accepted as non-regulated long guns. It happens daily, no one goes to jail because no law is broken...embrace it.

I contend that idiots that come up with laws like this couldn't tell the difference between an AR15 and a SKS much less different barrel profiles for an AR. I fell pretty confident that having a receiver marked COLT HBAR will keep me out of the gray bar hotel regardless of what the barrel looks like.

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I think you're absolutely right.

It's all about fearful people who really do not understand firearms or crime trying to differentiate between "good" firearms and "bad" firearms when no technical differences exist. It's all about the user, but God forbid recognizing that fact and leaving inanimate objects out of the argument.

1time said:

I'm not saying yours has a sear block but the picture you have does not show where the sear block is located.

The receiver on the left is an HBAR and you can see the sear block by the red arrow. The receiver on the right has not block for comparison.

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Actually, the pic by buff7mm would show a sear block if one was present, since it would partially obscure/obstruct the selector shaft, it's sole purpose in life.

The rifle you show as having a sear block actually has an un-milled portion of the fire control group cavity that does the same thing. Colt sear blocks are often a separate piece, blind pinned in place like this (thanks to "psywar" for the image):


Not only does the regular Colt sear block obstruct the sear area, it also requires the use of a bolt carrier that has clearance cuts for it, in theory providing yet another impediment to converting their sporting rifle into a full auto. Same thing with the odd fire control pin sizes and front takedown pin/screw sizes: all crap added by Colt to prevent full-auto parts interchangeability and help us all stay honest after 1986.

mikec said:

1time, do you REALLY think Colt changed their AR lower to satisfy MD's laws?



Colt changed their AR's back around 1989, when did MD enact the regulated gun laws?

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Colt did it to stay off of the chopping block federally I would assume. Since they took the sell out route I believe that Maryland would have taken that into consideration. That is the same company that quit selling most of their products to avoid what they thought was impending lawsuits in 1999. Of course some searching found that the Md assault bill was working its way through legislature in 1989 so maybe Colt did do it just for us...

E.Shell said:

The rifle you show as having a sear block actually has an un-milled portion of the fire control group cavity that does the same thing. Colt sear blocks are often a separate piece, blind pinned in place like this (thanks to "psywar" for the image):

Not only does the regular Colt sear block obstruct the sear area, it also requires the use of a bolt carrier that has clearance cuts for it, in theory providing yet another impediment to converting their sporting rifle into a full auto. Same thing with the odd fire control pin sizes and front takedown pin/screw sizes: all crap added by Colt to prevent full-auto parts interchangeability and help us all stay honest after 1986.

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That cool, I never saw one with an actual block. I assumed they just did not mill the shelf completely.

1time said:

Colt did it to stay off of the chopping block federally I would assume. Since they took the sell out route I believe that Maryland would have taken that into consideration. That is the same company that quit selling most of their products to avoid what they thought was impending lawsuits in 1999. Of course some searching found that the Md assault bill was working its way through legislature in 1989 so maybe Colt did do it just for us...

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I believe Colt lobbied hard in California to get the HBAR exempted, and that list is the one copied for the MD law. I think it's more likely that Colt changed the shelf to comply with federal law, and not the laws of two states.

1time said:

I fell pretty confident that having a receiver marked COLT HBAR will keep me out of the gray bar hotel regardless of what the barrel looks like.

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I'm not losing any sleep over it, either, despite owning several non-Colt "HBAR" clones that were all purchased OTC/UNREG.

It really is a matter of looking at it like this.... If something isn't illegal, then it's legal. Throw in years and years of precedent on top of it, and you have settled law, no test-cases needed.

I know that's hard for some folks to wrap their heads around, especially when they're so fearful of the state, but that's how it is...


Besides - they're aren't enough cells in the enitre state of MD to house everyone who purchased a non-Colt HBAR over the counter!!!!

There was a concern early this year amongst several licensed MD firearms dealers regarding the issue of only Colt HBAR's being non-regulated and all other manufacturers of AR type guns with heavy profile barrels being regulated. The MLFDA (Maryland Licensed Firearms Dealer's Association), of which I am on the Board of Directors, contacted MSP Licensing and Firearms Registration Unit to receive clarification on this issue. An AR rifle (minimum of 16" barrel) with bona fide heavy barrel dimensions (under the handguard too) is a non-regulated firearm as it is a "copy" of a non-regulated firearm. Anyone on this forum that is a member of the MLFDA should have received a letter pertaining to this subject a few months ago. The existance or non-existance of a sear block in the lower receiver has no bearing on this issue as nothing is mentioned in the law pertaining to sear blocks in non-regulated AR HBARs; so consider the sear block point moot. The "HBAR" marking need NOT be present on the lower receiver and/or the barrel so as long as the barrel has a bona fide heavy barrel contour or heavier. If one changes out the HBAR configuration to other than HBAR or heavier, then the AR rifle in question is no longer non-regulated and MUST be registered as a regulated firearm with MSP and the owner must be at least of 21 years of age. So why would one want to turn a non-regulated firearm into a regulated firearm is beyond me. If you want one that is regulated, then buy a regulated non-HBAR and no law will be broken if you decide to stick an HBAR upper on it though that firearm shall remain regulated and you may switch various uppers as you please. If you are trying to get around the minimum of the 21 years of age thing, don't even think about it, it's not worth it.

To summarize the above:

Bona fide HBAR AR as per manufacturer though no HBAR markings present~~ non-regulated as per MD law.

To switch said HBAR AR to other than HBAR configuration (light barrel)~~ILLEGAL without registering the firearm with MSP even if the lower receiver has HBAR marking.