MSP's Firearms Search is Non-Binding

NateIU10 · Nov 6, 2015

We have begun receiving replies to some of our MPIA requests. Of first importance in this letter, MSP identifies that the MSP Firearms Search page is non-binding on dealers and consumers, it is simply guidance.

Are the determinations that MSP has made and listed in the Firearms Search
binding, and does MSP consider those determinations to be final?
- The listed firearms' searches are not binding and determinations are not final. MSP is always willing to consider additional information regarding any firearm.

Are the determinations made Administrative Declaratory Rulings? What appeals process within MSP is there for firearms placed on the list as banned?
- No. The determinations are not Declaratory Rulings, and there is no appeals process. The Maryland State Police encourages interested parties to supply additional documentation that will clarify whether a particular regulated firearm is prohibited from sale to the general public.

There are multiple inconsistent applications, improper classifications, and
misstatements of law on the Firearms Search page.
- We welcome the submission of information regarding any apparent inconsistencies for review and correction, if needed.

If a firearm is incorrectly listed as "Banned" but it is later listed as "Not Banned" would the sale of a legal firearm be illegal for the simple fact that it is listed as "Banned"?
- No. It is not considered an illegal sale if the firearm is actually not a copy of a "banned" firearm.

The most recent example I can point to is the HK MR-556, which was originally listed as a banned Copy of the Colt AR15, even though it did not have completely
interchangeable parts. This decision, after multiple re-submissions by persons outside MSP,
was reversed and is now listed as "Not Banned". Would the sale of an HK MR556 during the time period it was listed as "Banned" on the website violate Maryland Law? In the subsequent disclosures made by MSP, will the following be made available?
- No. The MSP is providing guidance to a consumer, and when new information is brought forward supporting the purchase, changes may be made in the list.

Lots more in that letter with more on the way.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rxu54uhgznwfpew/Siegel PIA request clarification.pdf?dl=0

swinokur · Nov 6, 2015

Nate, thank you and the crew for the continued leadership in this area.

It is appreciated more than we can tell you.

DC-W · Nov 6, 2015

Goodness gracious. The avoidance of liability and accountability is breathtaking.

Thanks for your continued persistence, guys.

Mark75H · Nov 6, 2015

Thanks for your ongoing work. Greatly appreciated.

fidelity · Nov 6, 2015

It's a we are human and capable of mistakes response. I'm glad that you prompted them to share perspective of the list being guidance - which they of course use to enforce the law - but also being amenable to change via a submission of information and discussion of facts.

NateIU10 · Nov 6, 2015

It's more of a, "if it's a binding Administrative Determination we know you can sue us again," response IMO.

SWO Daddy · Nov 6, 2015

Interesting. I want to see the Sig MCX get fixed on their site.

NateIU10 · Nov 6, 2015

SWO Daddy said:
Interesting. I want to see the Sig MCX get fixed on their site.

We sell them.

JB62 · Nov 6, 2015

NateIU10 said:
We sell them.

And they feel awesome, got to fondle one thanks to Nate.

Thanks for efforts in the fight.

SWO Daddy · Nov 6, 2015

NateIU10 said:
We sell them.

I feel my wallet burning a hole in my pocket....

BeoBill · Nov 6, 2015

Curiouser and curiouser...

Thanks for the effort and the fruit it bore.
Keep fighting the good fight.

ironpony · Nov 7, 2015

Thanks Nate!

protegeV · Nov 7, 2015

ironpony said:
Thanks Nate!

bkuether · Nov 7, 2015

What? Real Americans fighting back against their oppressors?

Kudos to you and your effort. And based on your other posts, you MUST be grinning ear to ear......

There are a LOT of good so called legal firearms on that list that will thank you! :party29:

Schipperke · Nov 7, 2015

How about the SIGM400 Muddy Girl ?

Hawkeye · Nov 8, 2015

NateIU10 said:
It's more of a, "if it's a binding Administrative Determination we know you can sue us again," response IMO.

That's exactly what it is. They, as the organization that (right or wrong) by and large gets to interpret the firearms laws in this state, as well as holding the power to punish people for breaking those interpretations, publish a webpage telling people which rifles are banned and which aren't, but then when they are specifically asked about it suddenly it's just the MSP trying to be helpful and no one should actually rely on it?

Total lawsuit avoidance. And if this is really the case, and they were being honest about it, then they need to put a large "we are providing this list as a helping had and it is in no way legally binding" disclaimer on that page.

Of course, that's never going to happen.

Thanks yet again Nate and Engage.

Mark75H · Nov 8, 2015

Been thinking about this for a day now ... isn't it basically saying the list is arbitrary and changeable at their whim, without legislative change?

Doesn't that effectively nullify the law altogether?

I guess your attorney is thinking about this too.

Tactics · Nov 8, 2015

swinokur said:
Nate, thank you and the crew for the continued leadership in this area. It is appreciated more than we can tell you.

Nate,

You are the man.

Thank you.

Hawkeye · Nov 8, 2015

Mark75H said:
Been thinking about this for a day now ... isn't it basically saying the list is arbitrary and changeable at their whim, without legislative change?

Yes.

Doesn't that effectively nullify the law altogether?

No, because what they are saying here is specifically that the published list on their website is NOT legally binding. It's a dodge because they know they'll get called out on the fact that the list is ******** if they say that it's legally binding.

I guess your attorney is thinking about this too.

Nate is their attorney.

montoya32 · Nov 8, 2015

So instead of proofing their own drivel, they rely on the public to call them out and provide proof of any "typos"? Absolutely disgusting.

MSP's Firearms Search is Non-Binding

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