German contract Astra 400

KH195 · Sep 8, 2014

New arrival today after about a year of searching...WWII Astra 400 that falls into the Nazi German contract range (serial numbers 92851 to 98850) delivered in late 1941. These supposedly are able to function with 5 different cartridges: 9mm Bayard, 38 ACP, 9mm Steyr, 9mm Browning Long and 9x19, although it was designed specifically for the Bayard and 38. Mawkie had a great post about fake 400s a while back and what to look for on these since they didn't receive a German waffenamt stamp.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=151030

Got lucky with this one, it popped up on Gunbroker the other week with very poor photos and no mention of being German contract. since they dont have a waffenamt I would imagine they can easily slip through the cracks as "just another Astra" to those that haven't done their research. Turned out to be in outstanding condition, even better than I hoped...very little wear and still has some fire blue left on the extractor and small parts. All matching, no import marks. This one falls squarely into the German contract serial range at number 943xx.

KH195 · Sep 8, 2014

Other side

j8064 · Sep 8, 2014

Very nice.
:thumbsup:

engineerbrian · Sep 8, 2014

great find!

somd_mustangs · Sep 8, 2014

Yee-hah! That's one high on my list. Super hard to find. There's a complete rig up now on GB that's over $2k. Yours look to be in fantastic condition.

Ironically I was just thinking this weekend about digging through all the 400's that have come up lately to see if any were German contracts... but too lazy / other things going on. Congrats!

Dave91 · Sep 8, 2014

You always find the coolest stuff. I thought the Nazis usually marked their stuff. Is there a reason they didn't mark these?

cowboy321 · Sep 8, 2014

j8064 said:
Very nice.

Nice and Weird Gun!!

KH195 · Sep 8, 2014

Dave91 said:
You always find the coolest stuff. I thought the Nazis usually marked their stuff. Is there a reason they didn't mark these?

From what I've read (disclaimer; I'm by no means an expert on these and maybe someone else can chime in), the Germans considered them to be of a high quality, thus they decided to forego additional proofing.

BigDaddy · Sep 8, 2014

These supposedly are able to function with 5 different cartridges: 9mm Bayard, 38 ACP, 9mm Steyr, 9mm Browning Long and 9x19, although it was designed specifically for the Bayard and 38.

The 9mm Browning long is 9x20, and the 9x19 is 19 mm long and all the others are plus or minus 23 mm long. If rimless auto pistol cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case, how can this not create head space issues.

Not calling you out, just asking the people who think this can be done.

BTW really nice piece.

somd_mustangs · Sep 8, 2014

... the Germans considered them to be of a high quality, thus they decided to forego additional proofing.

The Waffenamt was a military acceptance stamp not a proof mark (subtle difference). The 7.65 Astra 300's didn't have the Waffenamt either, but most of the 9mm Kurtz did. Similarly, the first batch of Star B's didn't have the acceptance stamp. Not sure why (maybe as simple as the inspector was somewhere else when the shipment came in?).

The 400's sent to Germany did receive special attention to fit and finish and typically have a much more polished look. Maybe there was an agreement behind the scenes or even an off-the-books German Army inspector in Spain?

They put acceptance marks on all German-produced pistols that went to the military (as far as I know) since there were inspectors specifically assigned to the factories. And there were some fine, high-quality pistols there. With the arrogance of the regime I would think they'd give special attention to foreign-produced pistols and not take anything on face value.

Another argument against this idea was the CZ-38's didn't receive WaA's either (until the last gasp anyway). And that's not exactly a high quality pistol IMHO

Not sure there's a definitive answer on this one.

KH195 · Sep 8, 2014

somd_mustangs said:
The Waffenamt was a military acceptance stamp not a proof mark (subtle difference). The 7.65 Astra 300's didn't have the Waffenamt either, but most of the 9mm Kurtz did. Similarly, the first batch of Star B's didn't have the acceptance stamp. Not sure why (maybe as simple as the inspector was somewhere else when the shipment came in?).

The 400's sent to Germany did receive special attention to fit and finish and typically have a much more polished look. Maybe there was an agreement behind the scenes or even an off-the-books German Army inspector in Spain?

They put acceptance marks on all German-produced pistols that went to the military (as far as I know) since there were inspectors specifically assigned to the factories. And there were some fine, high-quality pistols there. With the arrogance of the regime I would think they'd give special attention to foreign-produced pistols and not take anything on face value.

Another argument against this idea was the CZ-38's didn't receive WaA's either (until the last gasp anyway). And that's not exactly a high quality pistol IMHO

Not sure there's a definitive answer on this one.

Excellent points, especially regarding the CZ-38! I was hoping you would weigh in on this question...thanks for the additional insight

somd_mustangs · Sep 8, 2014

BigDaddy said:
The 9mm Browning long is 9x20, and the 9x19 is 19 mm long and all the others are plus or minus 23 mm long. If rimless auto pistol cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case, how can this not create head space issues.

Not calling you out, just asking the people who think this can be done.

BTW really nice piece.

It did create head-space issues (and extractor failures), hence the Astra 600 in 9mm P which was designed specifically for the Germans to solve that issue. Since 9mm Largo wasn't always available the Germans shot the 9mm P thru the 400 and were less than thrilled with the performance & reliability.

Personally I wouldn't shoot .38 ACP through a pistol chambered for 9mm Largo unless the barrel is properly modified (grooved) to accept the semi-rimmed .38 ACP cartridge. Those guns are roll-marked or stamped with "38" in addition to 9m/m. Maybe it's perfectly safe but it would give me the heebie-jeebies.

BTW - they only shipped 6000 M400's to the Germans. That's not very many in the grand scheme of things, and one of the reasons this is such a prized find !

Threeband · Sep 8, 2014

The "works with 5 or 6 or 7 other cartridges" is an old, old bit of hype, maybe encouraged by importers, and spread by the sort of people who like to spout BS about guns. It is a big part of the mythology of these pistols.

The pistol is chambered for 9mm Largo, and that's the only correct ammo for it, but apparently it can be fired with more or less success using other 9mm rounds. Reliability and safety would be another matter.

9x19 is way too short, by about 4 mm, and would just disappear into the chamber if not caught and held by the extractor. Apparently the extractor holds the shorter round often enough to lend credence to the legend. .38 ACP may headspace on its semi-rim, and I think Americans back in the day had more success misusing that round, but it would be very dangerous to use the dimensionally identical .38 Super. The latter round is WAY too hot.

Remember, these guns are pure blowback. The breech is not locked at all.

Use the correct ammo: 9mm Largo.

somd_mustangs · Sep 8, 2014

The .38ACP will headspace properly if the barrel face is grooved to accept the rim. The guns marked with "38" are safe to shoot .38 ACP (NOT SUPER!).
Not really sure what will happen if it's not grooved, I guess it just wouldn't close all the way. Since the breech doesn't lockup anyway, and it's just a teeny amount, what's the harm, right? (that's sarcasm btw).

I guess we're drifting off-topic but here's graphic example of the differences between 9mm Parabellum (aka "Luger"), 9mm Browning Long, and .38 ACP. The 9mm Largo cartridge is the same size as the .38 but without a rim. Look at the drastic difference in the semi-rim design of the 9mm BL. The few times I've fired the 9mm BL it felt like a pretty hot load compared to the .38 ACP. Not sure what the rated pressures are though.

yellowsled · Sep 8, 2014

Sweet score!

28Shooter · Sep 8, 2014

Very nice - Congratulations!

Jimbob2.0 · Sep 8, 2014

Amazing how neat these Astra's are and they always seem in premium condition. I picked up the 600 that MilSurpDan had for sale for a while. Gun is definately growing on me.

somd_mustangs · Sep 8, 2014

oh, there's plenty out there in poor condition too :sad20:

one thing to look for is plier marks on the nose cap... shudder...

AC MkIII · Sep 9, 2014

Nice!
It looks like my FN 1922

chevellenut71 · Sep 9, 2014

Very Nice!!!!

German contract Astra 400

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