yellowfin
Pro 2A Gastronome
And in the meantime it's irritating as hell.
SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12
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fightinbluhen51
"Quack Pot Call Honker"
- Oct 31, 2008
- 8,974
This is a question that is quite a conundrum though...will the civil damages lawyers get involved? The ABA is notoriously anti-gun, and has been for years.
Though, I guess any good, money grubbing, half-ethical lawyer will do anything for a 5 or 6 figure payday, Especially when he gets a chance to hammer at "the man" in the process.
So, think about this...we might have people that disagree with us, defending us, AND pushing the envelope of the core right. How's that for irony?
Patrick
MSI Executive Member
We all "hate" the civil litigation, personal injury and tort lawyers, and there are truly some slimy bastards out there. But in their defense, a number of them do good work on behalf of good people in bad places. We see contingency fees of 30-40% and think they are evil, but they only get paid when they win or settle large. I know some good attorneys. They don't do personal injury stuff - but one of them bends the IRS for literally hundreds of millions at a time (my hero). But they are all good people.
Sappy editorial off.
But yeah...the slimy, greedy bastards I hang with will step up for a buck.
God Bless 'Em!
krucam
Ultimate Member
This just in....
#23, early on reads:
Defendants MD in #23 (attached) asked for an extension until 3/21 (2 weeks additional). They also plan to submit a cross-motion for summary judgment.
A Def Response to Pltf MSJ on 3/22. Followed by Def cross-motion for Summary Judgment sometime after wards, say 4/12, this may even be coincidental with the 3/22 Def response. 3 weeks for Pltf Response to Def Cross Motion for Summary Judgment, say 5/3 for that...that is dropping the penultimate gauntlet to Judge Motz IMHO. Ruling in....3-4 months. June/July time frame.
I don't understand the diff in #23's request for a 3/22 deadline for Def's response to Pltf MSJ, but say "Responses Due 3/14".
Regardless, more "drama" is coming up as Gansler & Co aren't going down quietly. I think they're so friggin sunk already, there is no saving them...but as they say, that's why we play the game....
#23, early on reads:
Defendants MD in #23 (attached) asked for an extension until 3/21 (2 weeks additional). They also plan to submit a cross-motion for summary judgment.
A Def Response to Pltf MSJ on 3/22. Followed by Def cross-motion for Summary Judgment sometime after wards, say 4/12, this may even be coincidental with the 3/22 Def response. 3 weeks for Pltf Response to Def Cross Motion for Summary Judgment, say 5/3 for that...that is dropping the penultimate gauntlet to Judge Motz IMHO. Ruling in....3-4 months. June/July time frame.
I don't understand the diff in #23's request for a 3/22 deadline for Def's response to Pltf MSJ, but say "Responses Due 3/14".
Regardless, more "drama" is coming up as Gansler & Co aren't going down quietly. I think they're so friggin sunk already, there is no saving them...but as they say, that's why we play the game....
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Gray Peterson
Active Member
Patrick,
Everyone hates lawyers until you need one. Then they become your best friend.
Everyone hates lawyers until you need one. Then they become your best friend.
fightinbluhen51
"Quack Pot Call Honker"
- Oct 31, 2008
- 8,974
Mark...I feel it in my gut. We are going to be on firm ground here...I can just feel it.
krucam
Ultimate Member
I GUESS I could have read the whole 3 pages of the #23 pdf...
The proposed and subsequently approved schedule is:
2-3 months after the final filing on 5/2...ok, I stand corrected. July/Aug we'll have a FINAL ruling in Woollard.
Is the Ruger LC9 on the Roster yet? I'm feeling it my gut as well...even with a suicidal appeal from the State to the 4th, this ones done. Stick a fork in her....
fightinbluhen51
"Quack Pot Call Honker"
- Oct 31, 2008
- 8,974
Which means we'll make it in for the 4th circuit conference in the fall? Or do the circuits not conference like SCOTUS? Either way, figure, what, 2 months to see whether the 4th will take it, assuming we win? The District judge will probably afford MD a stay for compelling interest if he finds in favor of the plaintiff. So, realistically, we might be able to see carry early next year (inclusive of MSP feet draping on applications and permit issuance).
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I GUESS I could have read the whole 3 pages of the #23 pdf...
The proposed and subsequently approved schedule is:
2-3 months after the final filing on 5/2...ok, I stand corrected. July/Aug we'll have a FINAL ruling in Woollard.
Is the Ruger LC9 on the Roster yet? I'm feeling it my gut as well...even with a suicidal appeal from the State to the 4th, this ones done. Stick a fork in her....
I don't want to be the pessimist here, but "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched!"...
Look how long it took DC to re-evaluate their laws to implement Heller. It could very well be next year.
Patrick
MSI Executive Member
My best friend and best man is also one of the best lawyers I know.
The sarcasm of my original response might not have carried on the Internet so well.
Patrick
MSI Executive Member
I'm with this Matt. Don't underestimate our climb.
Glad to see Maryland agreeing to a schedule for the rest of the case and that they are filing a motion for summary judgement. I thought they would play the dismissal game forever. I guess they ran out of delays. For those who haven't gone through it, Maryland agreed to file their last response to the case on May 2. There are several briefs in between from both parties. Typical schedule now.
This stage is coming to an end. The judge gets it in May. Then he takes the time he thinks he needs to take. Judge Motz is a senior judge and could get called out for any number of things. He stays busy. It could take a little while. Most likely mid to late summer for a ruling. That would be roughly 12 months beginning to end. Then the appeals.
Chester helps, but this is still a hard climb. I am hopeful but still think it could go either way.
After a ruling coming down for "We the people". Unfortunately, I can see Maryland continue to play games with references, criminal history, medical history, income, etc...
making a LCTF a very invasive process.
making a LCTF a very invasive process.
- Mar 23, 2008
- 1,394
What it really sounds like to me is that we need to be active like never before for the 2012 election season. After Woolard is decided it would be nice to have some friends in the legislature to prevent anything crazy from making it through - at least for a couple years or so. After that the shock value of CCW will have worn off and the blood in the streets cries will be mostly muted here. I mean, we'll always need to watch the legislature but IMO the session following the Woolard decision will be particularly critical.
Dogabutila
Ultimate Member
- Dec 21, 2010
- 2,359
Assuming we get the decision we want, what happens to the applications on the tail end of their waiting period if MD appeals and a stay is granted?
Standard disapprovals until it Wollard gets through circuit / SCOTUS / however far it might go?
Standard disapprovals until it Wollard gets through circuit / SCOTUS / however far it might go?
fightinbluhen51
"Quack Pot Call Honker"
- Oct 31, 2008
- 8,974
Yes. A stay will delay implimentation of the ruling to allow for a potential appeal, or for the state to figure out how they are going to impliment the law.
Sucks but, chances are thst the judge will grant a stay to the state if they plan to appeal. Obviously, if the state wins, then nothing changes, and we continue on our current course.
We all like to think that gansler is an idiot, but from a pure strategy standpoint, thus far he is doing exactly what he needs to do. He has no incentive (morally, politcally, or philosophically) to hurry this thing along. Its now at the point where he can't play the legal games any more and is forced to go nose to nose with on of the greatest Constitutional lawyers of all time. Considering Dougy Gansler is the AG that gave us a "legal" interprutation of "civil unions" for state workers (when, iirc, it was pattently and blatenly so, illegal), I have a feeling that his unimpressive 2A 2 step briefs will become even more so unimpressive.
In the words of TO, "gitcha popcorn ready."
ETA: Not saying that same sex marriage or civil unions between state workers and their partners doesn't have some nobility, just that at current time of his opinion, it was contrary to the law.
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Patrick
MSI Executive Member
Stays are generally granted when the case has a decent possibility of being overturned at the Appellate level, or when the effect of the ordered change is somewhat hard to undo, or if a judge feels like it. A District Court judge can stay their own decisions or the Circuit can step in. We saw that in the Ninth with Don't Ask Don't Tell.
If you look at the last two years and the rulings that were put on hold, they had a few things in common: they were controversial and the issue in the decision - if implemented - would have had some hard-to-reverse effects. Don't Ask Don't Tell...once you enlist someone it is hard to undo from afar. You cannot toss the guy for declaring his sexuality after you said it was OK to do so.
Would Woollard cause a stay? Don't know. I think the determining factors are the appellate court and the likelihood of reversal. If the judge is following guidance from the Circuit when making his decision, overturn is unlikely. So maybe no stay.
And in any case, the effects of the case are not permanent. If Gansler eventually wins he could administratively revoke every permit issued in one day.
Maryland would obviously invoke a public safety argument in a request to stay the decision, but according to Chester they will need to prove their case with more than grand pronouncement and a few choice statistics. They might have to prove that more permits will result in more violence. And because national data demonstrates that claim to be false, Maryland is left arguing the case that Maryland is special: that our citizens are somehow more bestial than those of other states, and as such, more likely to commit violence than other lawful US persons.
But we have to win, first.
If you look at the last two years and the rulings that were put on hold, they had a few things in common: they were controversial and the issue in the decision - if implemented - would have had some hard-to-reverse effects. Don't Ask Don't Tell...once you enlist someone it is hard to undo from afar. You cannot toss the guy for declaring his sexuality after you said it was OK to do so.
Would Woollard cause a stay? Don't know. I think the determining factors are the appellate court and the likelihood of reversal. If the judge is following guidance from the Circuit when making his decision, overturn is unlikely. So maybe no stay.
And in any case, the effects of the case are not permanent. If Gansler eventually wins he could administratively revoke every permit issued in one day.
Maryland would obviously invoke a public safety argument in a request to stay the decision, but according to Chester they will need to prove their case with more than grand pronouncement and a few choice statistics. They might have to prove that more permits will result in more violence. And because national data demonstrates that claim to be false, Maryland is left arguing the case that Maryland is special: that our citizens are somehow more bestial than those of other states, and as such, more likely to commit violence than other lawful US persons.
But we have to win, first.
BigDuphis
Ultimate Member
Do you think H.R. 822 passing would have any impact on the decision? Maybe put a little pressure on since people from other state would then be able to carry here?
krucam
Ultimate Member
HR 822 (Reciprocity) will have no effect on Woollard as it will have no effect on Plaintiff Woollard's initial complaint, that of being denied his right to carry due to not having "good and substantial" reason.
Reciprocity will certainly make a joke of the state's policies, but Woollard will be long decided before the General Assy wakes up and smells the toast burning...
Reciprocity will certainly make a joke of the state's policies, but Woollard will be long decided before the General Assy wakes up and smells the toast burning...
Squaredout
The Widows Son
- Mar 25, 2010
- 461
If this should happen,HR 822 passes and Woollard fails, what will our next step be to attempt to have the "good and substantial" reason removed?
krucam
Ultimate Member
Woollard, if lost at the District will be appealed to Circuit. If lost at Circuit, it or one of another 8 Federal Carry suits will eventually land at the Supreme Court...timeline for the Supreme Court on one of these 8-10 cases is "perhaps" this Fall (Peruta, 9th Circuit) but realistically, Fall of 2012....decision in 2013.
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