Failed primers?

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  • Neutron

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2014
    1,532
    severna park
    Yesterday I had 3 or 4 rounds out of 50 that failed to fire. These were.45 cal reloads with 230gn plated bullets, 4.5gn bullseye powder, and CCI large pistol primers. All had nice dimples on the primers so no firing pin issues. Unfortunately I didn't bring any of them home to disassemble, but I find it hard to believe that I forgot to add powder to the cartridge, yet that is the only thing I can imagine happened. Defective primers are pretty rare aren't they?
     

    Neutron

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2014
    1,532
    severna park
    Forgot to mention that the bullets were still seated at original depth. Wouldn't the primers alone have enough power to force the bullet out of the casing and into the barrel?
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Anything is possible in the way of defects. But there's a better chance that you're maybe dealing with primers not being fully seated here. Your firing pin will crater the primer, but it's pushing it deeper into the primer pocket.
     

    BUFF7MM

    ☠Buff➐㎣☠
    Mar 4, 2009
    13,576
    Garrett County
    If the primers detonated they would have most definitely moved the bullet from the casing into the bore if you wouldn’t have had powder in the case. I’m with the others, not seated deep enough, hard primer cup. But it could be you got a bad one, it does happen sometimes. I would have dropped the hammer on them again to try to get them to ignite.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    Anything is possible in the way of defects. But there's a better chance that you're maybe dealing with primers not being fully seated here. Your firing pin will crater the primer, but it's pushing it deeper into the primer pocket.
    Most likely this ^^^^

    Be sure your primers are at least flush, or a little below flush. If they stick up at all, they are not fully seated and the firing pin will seat, but often not detonate them.
     

    cyclops

    Active Member
    Dec 31, 2016
    134
    Western Md.
    Like others have said Primers not seated all the way is what I found to be the usual cause. Primers should be seated .003" to .005" below flush if you feel like measuring that.
     

    remrug

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 13, 2009
    1,762
    manchester md
    If the primers detonated they would have most definitely moved the bullet from the casing into the bore if you wouldn’t have had powder in the case.

    Not an expert here,but must not be true all the time.I was at the range shooting my 270.I had a round that failed to fire.I ejected the round and the bullet was still in the case.I somehow forgot to load powder when i loaded the round.I never measured to see if the bullet had move,just pulled it and loaded it again.It went BOOM that time...lol
     

    BUFF7MM

    ☠Buff➐㎣☠
    Mar 4, 2009
    13,576
    Garrett County
    Not an expert here,but must not be true all the time.I was at the range shooting my 270.I had a round that failed to fire.I ejected the round and the bullet was still in the case.I somehow forgot to load powder when i loaded the round.I never measured to see if the bullet had move,just pulled it and loaded it again.It went BOOM that time...lol

    He was talking a smaller handgun case not a larger rifle case.
     

    Neutron

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2014
    1,532
    severna park
    Went back to the range today and had the same issue. Six out of fifty would not fire. Tried two different firearms and both would not fire these rounds. This time I took the rounds home and disassembled them. They had powder in them so that is not the problem. All had good strikes on the primers (see photos). Primers were all seated flush with the bottom of the case. Only thing left to go wrong is defective primers. Any other thoughts?
     

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    Dsnyder

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 23, 2015
    407
    Baltimore
    I had a similar experience with my 45. About 6 rounds out of 50 would show a good primer dent but would not fire.
    When i stripped the gun down i found some chew marks on the firing pin blocking pin. It Was letting the pin go fully forward, but i guess it was dragging enough to loose some velocity. I did the pencil test before and after fixing it and the difference was remarkable.
    The gun has been super reliable since.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Next time that happens , rechamber and try it again . If it goes bang the second strike , that is a neon sign pointing to the primer seating .

    If not , try your loads in different pistol of same cal of known reliability. Still a limited sample , but if 100% from the other gun , look further to your gun .

    The primer strikes in the pics look sorta ok , but I'd really have to use eyeball in natural light to make a SWAG . But inconsistent ignition with borderline strikes is a real thing . Clean the firing pin channel carefully. You didn't mention the type of pistol , but for most a factory mainspring ( or premium brand , of stock weight ) is cheap , and will eliminate another variable.

    Yes , different brands of primer have different spec cups, and otherwise differ in force needed for consistent ignition. CCI are not the softest . ( I want all my guns to function will all brands of primer .)

    Defective primers directly from the production line are rare , but not quite zero . Much more common is contamination somewhere between the factory , and the shooting range.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Do indeed try to fire your 6 problem rounds again, as BF44 suggests. But if they don't fire....

    If your primer supply is such that you know or can determine that you're working out of the same lot number of CCI300's, maybe pick up a hundred or two of a different lot and see what happens. What you describe is usually seating depth related, with next likely reason for failure being gun related. Your mention of using two pistols this second time around though, and still a 12% failure rate, leaves me scratching my head also.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Ok , we can solve this . Bring some of your rounds to the next Monday Night in Naptown . I will generously test them in my uber reliable P-90 for you. ( Not in Annapolis, but back at the Biggfoot Estate .)
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Never say never , but despite .45acp nominally headspacing on the mouth , in semiautos they usually are retained in proper position relative to breachface by the extractor.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Is it possible that he's got a bit too much crimp and the cases are moving slightly forward as Doco suggests?

    Yes cases that are too short or that have a heavy crimp will enter up to the chamber to far, head-spacing on the extractor which should have just the right amount of clearance in it to allow the pistol to feed properly and have reliable ignition and consistent accuracy by the mouth of the cartridge stopping its forward movement like its supposed to. Even so the fit is such that a case would have to really be short or the primer damaged maybe by being seated to deeply or crushed when it was seated.
    Is this the problem with the ops gun? I have no idea how the ammo has been assembled but had to learn myself to solve a similar problem. He said he tried it in two different firearms and had the same problem. This is how it worked for me,
    I would actually observe how the case fit is with the chamber by sticking a dummy problem case in the barrel and fitting it to the slide and verifying how much slack is there. A properly fitted gun should have around .020-,030+ clearance from the face of the extractor to the rim. This made ignition problems go away for me because there was some head gap present and poor reloading practices used in my instance. Cases not the same length and different brands of primers used.
    Fred Kirchner showed me that. Sounds like an ammo problem to me, hope he gets it figured out.
    The only other thing that I can think of is the gun is not totally in battery but that is doubtful between two different pistols.
     

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