PNTC Intro to Long Range AAR

erwos · Jul 7, 2019

AAR on my blog:
https://hebrewhammerblog.com/2019/07/07/pntc-intro-to-long-range-aar-rpr-edition/

I found out the hard way that FGMM 168gr does not get you to a thousand yards reliably at the altitudes around here. It was otherwise an amazing class at an amazing facility.

engineerbrian · Jul 7, 2019

erwos said:
AAR on my blog:
https://hebrewhammerblog.com/2019/07/07/pntc-intro-to-long-range-aar-rpr-edition/

I found out the hard way that FGMM 168gr does not get you to a thousand yards reliably at the altitudes around here. It was otherwise an amazing class at an amazing facility.

Tagging this to read tomorrow. I’m looking for a beginners long range class

engineerbrian · Jul 7, 2019

Ok i didnt wait until tomorrow, i just read it.

Seems like a good class. What does the class cost?

Lloyd · Jul 7, 2019

engineerbrian said:
Ok i didnt wait until tomorrow, i just read it.

Seems like a good class. What does the class cost?

I second Brian's question and also what was your setup, and the typical setup of others that took the course?

.

rbird7282 · Jul 8, 2019

erwos said:
AAR on my blog:

https://hebrewhammerblog.com/2019/07/07/pntc-intro-to-long-range-aar-rpr-edition/

I found out the hard way that FGMM 168gr does not get you to a thousand yards reliably at the altitudes around here. It was otherwise an amazing class at an amazing facility.

No, for .308 at that distance you should be shooting FGMM 175 Grain.
You should come out to Frontier Sunday on the 14th. (I think they have them every month) it’s essentially long range practice out to 1200 yards

Great write up by the way!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Scrounger · Jul 8, 2019

Registration for next Sunday the 14th of July is closed, they have already filled up. The next Frontier Sunday is August the 11th.

https://peacemakernational.com/frontiersunday/

erwos · Jul 8, 2019

Lloyd said:
I second Brian's question and also what was your setup, and the typical setup of others that took the course?

Cost was $200 (members) or $225 (non-members). I think it was worth the money even without the free Kestrel 2700.

My rig was probably on the upper half of what people brought; it was a lot of scope, and the RPR really performs if you get a good one (which I did, albeit after a trip back to the factory). I think you would do fine with a properly set up Savage or whatever, though. I think the scope is a lot more important than the rifle, once you hit that 1MOA mark.

rbird7282 said:
No, for .308 at that distance you should be shooting FGMM 175 Grain.

Yeah, the FGMM 168gr was cheap, but I was unaware of the 168gr SMK's issues going transonic. Live and learn! In a way, it was rather educational unto itself seeing that failure, because I'm not used to 308's limitations (which, for once, were limiting me and not the other way around).

I assume that the range we shot on was the Frontier range, given the description. I would be making a fair number of changes to my gear before trying to reliably hit that 1200yd target, and not just ammo. But it was certainly quite a lot of fun. I could definitely see screwing around with all sorts of rifles trying to make those hits, even if it were just from 400-800.

engineerbrian · Jul 8, 2019

Thanks again for the info. My son and I are looking for a class and this fits the bill.

Our set ups will be on the lower end. We want to get to a 1000 yards with budget rifles, Savage Axis and Ruger American.

erwos · Jul 8, 2019

engineerbrian said:
Thanks again for the info. My son and I are looking for a class and this fits the bill.

Our set ups will be on the lower end. We want to get to a 1000 yards with budget rifles, Savage Axis and Ruger American.

What caliber, and what scope? 308 is slightly marginal for a thousand, albeit if you just want to get a hit so you can say you got a hit (which was my goal, TBH), it'll get you there. The right load in 6.5CM or even 6.5G would presumably be more consistent at those ranges. From what I can tell, if your bullet goes transonic and has the wrong profile and the wind isn't with you down range, you can "do your part" and still rack up a miss.

engineerbrian · Jul 8, 2019

erwos said:
What caliber, and what scope? 308 is slightly marginal for a thousand, albeit if you just want to get a hit so you can say you got a hit (which was my goal, TBH), it'll get you there. The right load in 6.5CM or even 6.5G would presumably be more consistent at those ranges. From what I can tell, if your bullet goes transonic and has the wrong profile and the wind isn't with you down range, you can "do your part" and still rack up a miss.

Honestly both of us just want to be consistent out to 600 yards or so. If we hit the target at 1000 one time thats fine, I can check that off my list.

The guns are both .308’s with a basic Burris drop tine scope.

Squaregrouper · Jul 8, 2019

engineerbrian said:
Thanks again for the info. My son and I are looking for a class and this fits the bill.

Our set ups will be on the lower end. We want to get to a 1000 yards with budget rifles, Savage Axis and Ruger American.

erwos said:
What caliber, and what scope? 308 is slightly marginal for a thousand, albeit if you just want to get a hit so you can say you got a hit (which was my goal, TBH), it'll get you there. The right load in 6.5CM or even 6.5G would presumably be more consistent at those ranges. From what I can tell, if your bullet goes transonic and has the wrong profile and the wind isn't with you down range, you can "do your part" and still rack up a miss.

engineerbrian said:
Honestly both of us just want to be consistent out to 600 yards or so. If we hit the target at 1000 one time thats fine, I can check that off my list.

The guns are both .308’s with a basic Burris drop tine scope.

I used my TC Compass 6.5CM w/Vortex 3-9x40 at Frontier Day and was consistently hitting steel at 1200yds. What I observed was the .308 shooters were killing it until 800yds or so. That is where the 6.5's started to shine.

dbledoc · Jul 8, 2019

They have the NRA intro to long range this Saturday. Same location and essentially the same instructors. I am signed up for it. I spoke to one of the instructors during the Steal Challenge. The big difference is the NRA class spends more time up front getting your gear tuned at the 100 yd range.

erwos · Jul 8, 2019

squaregrouper said:
I used my TC Compass 6.5CM w/Vortex 3-9x40 at Frontier Day and was consistently hitting steel at 1200yds. What I observed was the .308 shooters were killing it until 800yds or so. That is where the 6.5's started to shine.

This is more or less what happened with me. Hit transonic and then things just fell apart. I think you could reliably hit 1000 with the right, carefully-designed handload, but most factory ammo is going to be dicey.

rbird7282 · Jul 8, 2019

erwos said:
This is more or less what happened with me. Hit transonic and then things just fell apart. I think you could reliably hit 1000 with the right, carefully-designed handload, but most factory ammo is going to be dicey.

The FGMM 175’s don’t go transonic until about 1050 yards. (Depending upon conditions)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

erwos · Jul 8, 2019

rbird7282 said:
The FGMM 175’s don’t go transonic until about 1050 yards. (Depending upon conditions)

Yeah, I think I could have made the shot with those. Wouldn't have gotten me to the 1200 yard target, though. I might convert a spare AR-308 upper to 6.5 CM just to give it a try.

Squaregrouper · Jul 8, 2019

I am by no means an expert, but this is my understanding...
The trajectory is predictable as long as the projectile is supersonic; once it is subsonic, all bets are off. EX- In the same conditions, a bullet travelling at 3000fps at the muzzle will repeatedly have virtually the same velocity at 100yds, 200yds, 500yds, etc- until it becomes subsonic. At subsonic speeds, the trajectory is much less repeatable, thus much less accurate.
Most .308 bullets leave the barrel faster than 6.5CM, but they can't maintain velocity as well.

Ammo Jon · Jul 8, 2019

Now you guys make me want to pick up a 50. What's the intro $$ to a 50?

Speed3 · Jul 8, 2019

Ammo Jon said:
Now you guys make me want to pick up a 50. What's the intro $$ to a 50?

The problem is that most ranges wont let you shoot a 50 cal, destroys backstops and steel. Even the .338 is in the category...personally 300 win mag is probably the best compromise between practicing and beating wind drift while still having energy downrange.

Ammo Jon · Jul 8, 2019

Speed3 said:
The problem is that most ranges wont let you shoot a 50 cal, destroys backstops and steel.

At 1000 yards+?

Speed3 · Jul 8, 2019

Ammo Jon said:
At 1000 yards+?

As far as I know, yes. Longest range that I know of is Peacemaker at 1,200 yards and they don't allow 50.

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